Author Topic: First Ballyeaston Presbyterian Church Registers  (Read 1488 times)

Offline KiwiRose

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First Ballyeaston Presbyterian Church Registers
« on: Tuesday 07 November 17 23:04 GMT (UK) »

I have been searching for a branch of the Gardner family who lived in Upper Glenwhirry.  The goal was to trace the correct Gardner descendants back to the 1813 farming couple, Thomas, aged 62, and wife Ann Gardner, 48yrs.

The Population of Ballyeaston Congregation in 1813 is my starting point and I wish to fill in the gaps from then until civil records begin. Time spent searching for Gardner, and variants, on numerous sites online has resulted in my total confusion due to the various branches and repeat family names in the later generations. Familysearch was helpful but threw up some anomalies. The Ballyeaston Presbyterian Church records may unscramble my confusion by filling in who Thomas and Annís children married and their descendants.

 The Second Ballyeaston Church baptismal records for 1813 to 1880 are available through Emerald Ancestors online. Unfortunately Gardner is not listed in the prevalent family baptism family surnames list so that route appears to be closed.

The First Presbyterian Church registers would be my best bet. I understand that PRONI has the records but visiting is not an option for me. I am hoping the registers are from about 1813. Earlier would be wonderful!  Is there any site online (or pending), or book published etc with the First Church registers that I could troll through at my leisure to sort out my pre civil records Gardners?

Regards,
KiwiRose.
Ireland:
County Antrim: Carrickfergus District: Irwin, McAllister, McNeil, Moore.
County Clare: Barrett.
USA:
Washington State: Moore, Hoyt, Sinclair, Johnson, Palmateer, Larrabee.
California: De Curtoni.
New Zealand: De Cartoni, Lofquist, Harding.

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Online aghadowey

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Re: First Ballyeaston Presbyterian Church Registers
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 07 November 17 23:08 GMT (UK) »
According to PRONI's online Guide to Church Records-
1st Ballyeaston  Baptisms, 1814-1924; marriages, 1813-90; marriage Notices, 1933-2002; indexes to baptisms, 1814-1924; census, 1813.
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/Guide_to_church_records.pdf
Please do NOT ask for lookups by Personal Message.

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Offline KiwiRose

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Re: First Ballyeaston Presbyterian Church Registers
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 08 November 17 08:28 GMT (UK) »
Aghadowey,

Thank you for the link to PRONIís Guide to Church Records. I have downloaded the guide as I know I will continue to find it a useful reference in the future when searching for other branches of my Northern Ireland tree.

It is pleasing to note that the 1st Ballyeaston baptism and marriages cover the gap years of 1813 to 1864/1845.   Copyright issues aside,  it would be great if PRONI  intends, in the not too distant future, to make some/all the Church registers they hold available online.

Kind regards
KiwiRose.
Ireland:
County Antrim: Carrickfergus District: Irwin, McAllister, McNeil, Moore.
County Clare: Barrett.
USA:
Washington State: Moore, Hoyt, Sinclair, Johnson, Palmateer, Larrabee.
California: De Curtoni.
New Zealand: De Cartoni, Lofquist, Harding.

Offline Elwyn Soutter

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Re: First Ballyeaston Presbyterian Church Registers
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 08 November 17 09:39 GMT (UK) »

   Copyright issues aside,  it would be great if PRONI  intends, in the not too distant future, to make some/all the Church registers they hold available online.


I heard the former Director of PRONI discuss this issue at a public meeting. She said that there are no plans to do so. The size of their collection would mean that it would be a hugely expensive piece of work. They could only recoup the costs by charging (or by entering into an arrangement with a commercial company who would charge) and they donít want to do that because they are committed to providing access to the records free of charge. Such money as they do have will be spent on conservation and acquiring new collections, plus extending existing on-line collections such as the wills.

If you canít get to PRONI yourself, you might need to employ a researcher for a few hours, to go through the records and copy the relevant bits.
Elwyn

Online aghadowey

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Re: First Ballyeaston Presbyterian Church Registers
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 08 November 17 10:32 GMT (UK) »
My understanding, from what I was told about 30 years ago, was that PRONI were given permission to microfilm the various church records with the understanding that printing copies was not allowed. It was, however, possible to purchase a copy of a particular microfilm from PRONI after obtaining permission from the relevant church.

Links to various PRONI sections are here in IRELAND RESOURCES-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=753389.0
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Offline Elwyn Soutter

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Re: First Ballyeaston Presbyterian Church Registers
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 08 November 17 11:48 GMT (UK) »
My understanding, from what I was told about 30 years ago, was that PRONI were given permission to microfilm the various church records with the understanding that printing copies was not allowed. It was, however, possible to purchase a copy of a particular microfilm from PRONI after obtaining permission from the relevant church.


Thatís right. They did use to sell copies of whole films, where appropriate permission existed. I enquired about that a few years back. I was told that because microfilm technology is now almost obsolete, thereís only 1 company they know of still able to provide this service, but itís at a prohibitive price. Something like £100 per film. Consequently PRONI no longer sell copies of their films.
Elwyn

Offline KiwiRose

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Re: First Ballyeaston Presbyterian Church Registers
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 08 November 17 20:21 GMT (UK) »
Aghadowey and Elwyn Soutter,

Thank you for your informative answers to my query regarding PRONI and possible viewing online or purchasing of their church holdings, in any form, of Church registers.

 In view of PRONIís policy, have you any thoughts as to how Emerald Ancestors have somehow managed to obtain the 2nd Ballyeaston church baptisms? I get the impression that they used PRONI microfilm. Maybe that route could be a taken by EA or similar enterprising sites for other NI church historical registers.

It could also be a way of raising funds for a local church or would all copies of a churchís registers have been surrendered to PRONI?  Iím clutching at straws here!

Even though I would rather put the money towards benefiting the church itself by purchasing photocopies of the relevant pages of their registers, it looks like the only practical way, at the moment, is to employ a PRONI researcher.

Kind regards,
KiwiRose.
Ireland:
County Antrim: Carrickfergus District: Irwin, McAllister, McNeil, Moore.
County Clare: Barrett.
USA:
Washington State: Moore, Hoyt, Sinclair, Johnson, Palmateer, Larrabee.
California: De Curtoni.
New Zealand: De Cartoni, Lofquist, Harding.

Offline Elwyn Soutter

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Re: First Ballyeaston Presbyterian Church Registers
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 08 November 17 23:38 GMT (UK) »
KiwiRose,

With the Church of Ireland their records are public records and so are probably the most easily accessible, in terms of copying. With the Roman Catholic church itís really up to the bishops to decide about access, and that can be granted en bloc for all parishes.  But with Presbyterian churches, the records are not public documents and they belong to each congregation. So one congregation may agree to allow access and another may not.

I have no idea how Emerald Ancestors obtained their records for Ballyeaston 2nd. I suspect it was probably from the originals rather than PRONIís copy, but you would need to ask them to get the facts. It may just be that the 2nd Congregation agreed to allow EA to copy them when the 1st did not.

PRONI generally have microfilmed copies and the originals are still held by the church.  There are some exceptions to that, notably if a church has closed. There are some originals in PRONI and some in the Presbyterian Historical Society in Belfast. It all rather depends on what the congregation decided to do with their records. PRONIís copy for Ballyeaston 1st is a microfilm copy, not the original.

Some Presbyterian churches have put their baptism & marriage records on CDs and sell them. (Donegore 1st springs to mind in this respect). But itís up to each congregation to decide. One congregation may have an enthusiastic committee eager to raise money by providing this service, and another may not.  If you write to the Minister for assistance, especially with a simple enquiry, some will reply with helpful answers and some will ignore your letter.  It sounds as though what you hope to do is a trawling search. Most Ministers havenít the time to do that, which is why I think you may need a researcher to do it for you.

There are also theological reasons why some Presbyterian congregations are reluctant to allow commercial and other organisations to copy their records but weíll leave that for another day.
Elwyn

Offline KiwiRose

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Re: First Ballyeaston Presbyterian Church Registers
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 09 November 17 09:01 GMT (UK) »
Elwyn,
Thank you for sharing your considerable knowledge and responding to my musings. I really appreciate your taking the time and trouble to explain the situation regarding NI church records and the varying individual church views to me.  Good on the Donegore 1st for putting their records on a CD for sale. What a shame that I would only have the odd distant family member who resided in the area.
My next step is very obvious if I wish to fill in those missing years with proof and accuracy using the only real records available.

Kind regards,
KiwiRose.
Ireland:
County Antrim: Carrickfergus District: Irwin, McAllister, McNeil, Moore.
County Clare: Barrett.
USA:
Washington State: Moore, Hoyt, Sinclair, Johnson, Palmateer, Larrabee.
California: De Curtoni.
New Zealand: De Cartoni, Lofquist, Harding.