Author Topic: Help with Latin from 1866 Irish Marriage record  (Read 2632 times)

Offline Pdorgan

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Help with Latin from 1866 Irish Marriage record
« on: Sunday 12 November 17 18:10 GMT (UK) »
Can anyone translate this Latin entry from 1866 Marriage Registry from a Dublin Marriage in St Andrews Church, westland row.

Here is the link if it helps..
https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000633489#page/213/mode/1up

Thanks guys..
Co Clare - Corry, Duggan, Hogan, Linnane, Madden, Molony, Noonan
Co Tipperary - Dorgan/Dargan/Durgan, Jones
Llanelly - Davis, Evans, Peregrine
Sussex - Fermor, Martin

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Help with Latin from 1866 Irish Marriage record
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 12 November 17 19:57 GMT (UK) »
What are the names of the couple and what date in 1866 was it so I'm sure to look at the correct marriage in the register?

The only words I can make out from the image are "fecit libertatis" (?) on 3rd line. = become/ made free (?) (to marry?). Was either bride or groom previously married? Were they already related in some way, by blood or through marriage?
Cowban

Offline Pdorgan

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Re: Help with Latin from 1866 Irish Marriage record
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 12 November 17 21:14 GMT (UK) »
Here are names.. Sorry I should jhave checked the link...

Charles James Anderson and Mary Carey
Marriage 26 Nov 1866, St Andrews Church , Westland Row, Dublin

I am not aware of any relationship  between the two of them, and I dont know if either were previously married. I just came acrss this rcord today, is the first time I see Charles James...

I did look at the Irish Civil records but the Marriage record is not published, i'd have to send away for it...  Dublin South 1866 Q1, Vol17, Pg 774
Co Clare - Corry, Duggan, Hogan, Linnane, Madden, Molony, Noonan
Co Tipperary - Dorgan/Dargan/Durgan, Jones
Llanelly - Davis, Evans, Peregrine
Sussex - Fermor, Martin

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Help with Latin from 1866 Irish Marriage record
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 12 November 17 22:58 GMT (UK) »
It's a note relating to the dispensation granted for the marriage. "Disp" was written in the column headed "Denuntiationca". Several couples on same page had dispensations.

The Latin extract you posted is an explanatory note. It's in the last column which has a long, Latin heading: Observanda, si quam sint: e.g. si quis ex sponsis fuerit conversus ad fidem, vel antes (these last 2 words may have been 1 word, volantis) matrimonio conjunctus, etc. (The 1st example given is sponsor/godparent of a convert to the faith. People who had a spiritual relationship, godparent & godchild for instance, weren't supposed to marry each other.)

The notes in that column are hard to read. This is what I can make out in Latin:
1st line. Im(?) jagus (or) tagus (?) justa triar_(or) friar_ (?) G____*
2nd line. ni int__ (or) ent__( followed by a blot or a crossing out) ded...tionem cousi__ (or) causi_(?)
3rd line. majist__ (followedby a blot or crossing out) civil_ fecit libertatis
4th line. L...d ad (/) contra..tandum (or) contrabandum (I can't read rest )
Sorry for the poor effort. I had difficulty even with the printed column headings.

I wonder if one of the parties had previously been married in a civil marriage which wasn't considered valid by the R.C. Church. The only words I'm sure about are "fecit libertatis". Obviously the dispensation, for whatever reason it was granted, made them free to marry, because they got married on that day.

There was also a note in the same column for the marriage of Robert Gourie (?) and Margaret Corcoran, 25th Nov. This is tiny writing. Some words appear to be similar "matrimonium" , "conjunction", "magistris", " civil".
There may be notes on other pages which may help with deciphering or understanding the one for Charles and Mary.
Someone with more experience in reading and translating these things may be along later.
*G______ may have been name of bishop who granted the dispensation to marry.
Cowban


Offline Bookbox

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Re: Help with Latin from 1866 Irish Marriage record
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 12 November 17 23:23 GMT (UK) »
Best I can do, but you can probably get the gist of it ...

Vir, Vagans juxta Vicarii G(eneralis)
(...) declarationem Coram
Magistro Civili fecit libertatis
Jure ad contrahendum Matrimonium


The man, acting in accordance with the (...) of the Vicar General, made a declaration on oath before a civil lawyer that he was at liberty to contract the marriage.


Offline Bookbox

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Re: Help with Latin from 1866 Irish Marriage record
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 12 November 17 23:52 GMT (UK) »
It's in the last column which has a long, Latin heading: Observanda, si quam sint: e.g. si quis ex sponsis fuerit conversus ad fidem, vel antes (these last 2 words may have been 1 word, volantis) matrimonio conjunctus, etc. (The 1st example given is sponsor/godparent of a convert to the faith. People who had a spiritual relationship, godparent & godchild for instance, weren't supposed to marry each other.)

In case it helps, the column is headed ...

Observanda, si quae sint: e.g. si quis ex sponsis
fuerit conversus ad fidem, vel antea
matrimonio conjunctus, etc.

Observations, if any: for example, if any of the spouses has been converted to the faith, or previously joined in marriage, etc.

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Help with Latin from 1866 Irish Marriage record
« Reply #6 on: Monday 13 November 17 00:15 GMT (UK) »
Didn't I say someone would be along later? The very person I had in mind.
I think I got 3 words right.
Cowban

Offline Pdorgan

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Re: Help with Latin from 1866 Irish Marriage record
« Reply #7 on: Monday 13 November 17 01:22 GMT (UK) »
Thanks very much Maiden and Bookbox...

So I would take it that the church had some reason to need him to provide some type of proof he was free to marry? Possibly he may have been married before, and had to establish he was a widower?  Or he was newly arrived in the Parish with no one to vouch for him?

Would that be a fair statement?
Co Clare - Corry, Duggan, Hogan, Linnane, Madden, Molony, Noonan
Co Tipperary - Dorgan/Dargan/Durgan, Jones
Llanelly - Davis, Evans, Peregrine
Sussex - Fermor, Martin

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Help with Latin from 1866 Irish Marriage record
« Reply #8 on: Monday 13 November 17 02:43 GMT (UK) »
I think it would be something along those lines. Bridegroom in the other marriage with a note on previous day was from Glasgow. A note on the image below that page says, in English "Lady brought certificate from her parish priest".  There were more, in tiny writing, on previous pages, average of 1 or 2 per page. People in Dublin were from all over country as well as other parts of Britain and abroad. It wasn't like a marriage in a country parish where most people had lived a long time and many knew each other from birth.
Both bride and groom would also have to prove they were baptised Christians. At least one, preferably both, had to be Catholic. If one was a Christian from another denomination there wouldn't be a Nuptial Mass, but a simple wedding ceremony in a different form. A Catholic born in a different parish may have had to produce a baptismal certificate or a letter from the priest of that parish to prove they were R.C.

At the beginning of the 20th century the Catholic Church tightened up marriage rules. As well as that, a record of the marriage was added to the baptismal register of bride and groom (if they were  R.C.). If one of them later tried to marry again in a Catholic church while their spouse was alive, they wouldn't be able to, because evidence of their existing marriage was next to their baptism.
Cowban