Author Topic: fought but not fallen  (Read 703 times)

Offline jan21

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Re: fought but not fallen
« Reply #9 on: Monday 13 November 17 19:27 GMT (UK) »
 :) :) Thank you soooooo much all of you. How wonderful. Firstly, you found him, but you may also have found my uncle Bill, his son. The William Albert Bibby, was from Rishton as you found, and the bronchitis could have been from his days in the pit, but mum was adamant it was the war. He had a son William Albert Bibby who was in Egypt also and the story I have been given is that he was a seargent major, and that he was at one time in the military police and he was in charge of Nazi officers prisoner of war camps in 2nd world war. But back to my grandfather from Rishton, I am delighted that you have given me these informations, he was married to Elizabeth driver and so I know that that one is correct...but, you have mentioned an illegitimate child and I am so fascinated and happy to know more with that one please if you have it. I am new to this so don't know how to reply to each one of you, so I am posting this in the hope that the person who found the info on the William Albert Bibby from Rishton, and the illegitimate story please will you get in touch. Lastly..do any of you wonderful people have any photos of him in any of your researches. Thank you xxx

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Online sallyyorks

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Re: fought but not fallen
« Reply #10 on: Monday 13 November 17 19:33 GMT (UK) »
The 1911 census William Albert born 1887 married Elizabeth Driver in 1910, they had three children between 1913 and 1919.  2376 William Albert was born in 1887 and discharged in 1919 medical category A1 although he did have bowel problems and bronchitis.  Place of birth for both is Rishton and occupation for both is miner.  (He also fathered an illegitimate child in 1908 with another Elizabeth)

Would seem to suggest that these two are the same man but is he one we are hoping to find given that he was A1 when discharged and served in different theatre of war?

That said, unfortunately "gassed at Ypres" or "wounded on the Somme" tend to be expressions heard a lot that have been passed down the generations and are sometimes found not to be the case.  Recently on this forum a man "wounded on the Somme" was actually fighting 200 miles further north.  I mention this, not to belittle a man's service, but to suggest that if the William Albert is the right one, then could the bronchitis have turned into gassing by a chinese whispers process?

Jan21 - the children of William and Elizabeth were Joseph, Albert and Leah - do they accord with the next generation down?

MaxD

I still think it possible he was at Ypres
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Online heywood

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Re: fought but not fallen
« Reply #11 on: Monday 13 November 17 19:56 GMT (UK) »
That is great news. I am really pleased for you.  :)
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Offline MaxD

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Re: fought but not fallen
« Reply #12 on: Monday 13 November 17 20:52 GMT (UK) »
The information about the illegitimate child comes from his service record.  The lady was Elizabeth Younger Milroy of Rishton, the child born 8 Nov 1908 and the order for maintenance made in December 1908.  The army record of it is all dated in March 1915 so whether he didn't pay up straight away - who knows.

The reason Ypres was discounted was because the entries on his record, which are quite clear, show service in UK, Egypt and the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force which at the time recorded was also Egypt.  From these it was possible to cross check to battalions who served in those places.

BUT - I should have looked more closely at the service record and particularly at the medal records.
In March 1915 when the child paperwork was generated he was in 2/4th Battalion in Southport.  He was with them later in May 1915 in Sussex.  His medal record shows he served overseas with 1/4th Battalion and with 9th Battalion. The 9th were in Salonika and 1/4th were at Gallipoli and later Egypt BUT served in France from early 1917

I'm sorry this is full of numbers but essentially, his written record does not include France.  If he was with 1/4th after the move from Egypt then the possibility of being gassed in France/Flanders does exist.  It is a bit peculiar that his discharge record shows him as A1 medical category which means that, at least according to the medics, if he had been gassed, it didn't affect him. 

As to where he was gassed, that cannot be established.  Given the mis-match between his record and his medal records we can't be sure where he was and when.  There were five major engagements, Oct/Nov 16, Apr/May 15, Jul/Nov 17 (Passchendaele), Apr 18 (Lys) and Sep/Oct 18  which became called the 1st, 2nd etc battles of Ypres.  Ypres was held by the allies from Oct 1914 and the salient was under constant attack  by shell and gas outside the major engagements too.

In sum, his records are a mess so while one can guess at the sequence of his service, the next person may come up with another idea!  Suffice to say that the family story of being gassed in France/Flanders does look a possibility - evidence though cannot be found - but who needs it!

MaxD
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Offline jan21

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Re: fought but not fallen
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 14 November 17 19:42 GMT (UK) »
 :D So, now I know his war record, he really did do a lot of fighting, for most of the war, probably was at Ypres, and Gallipoli , and I remembered something as soon as I saw the Gallipoli link from MaxD, ..my mum could always recite the Maori 'oka' ( I don't know how you say or spell it), and she said her father learned it from a New Zealand soldier when he was in the army. He obviously told his little daughter, she has learned it off by heart and used to recite it to us. So there is truth in his being with a New Zealand soldier in Gallipoli, and he was in Egypt, and Ypres. His medical A1 release, doesn't surprise me, as he was a very strong guy my mum said he was a tall strapping handsome man, he would have made out he was better than he was. He developed very bad chest problems and couldn't work after. But all those years of fighting and war, away from family and home, how they stood it I will never know. Before I found out all this, the first world war always touched me deeply, even though all wars are terrible, that one struck at my heart. Maybe my grandfathers experience was with me.  And now, thanks to you lot on here, I have a new 'skeleton in the cupboard' legacy from him...the illegitimate child!  Cant wait to find out. Thank you again, you have encouraged me to learn more about researching, and not give up (I am rubbish on the computer). love and peace people xxx

Offline jennifer c

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Re: fought but not fallen
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 14 November 17 20:04 GMT (UK) »
Elizabeth younger milroy born 1884 Blackburn

Jennifer
Stevens /Godfrey /Rudgley /Claridge/ Gipson /George /Bliss
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Offline Jool

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Re: fought but not fallen
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 14 November 17 20:41 GMT (UK) »
Looking at the GRO Index for the illegitimate child, this one jumps out as a possible.

Stanley Milroy
born Dec Q 1908, Blackburn
Volume 08E  Page 310
There is a dash where the mother's maiden name should be, suggesting an illegitimate birth
Robbins - Wolverhampton.
Spooner - Monmouthshire & Wolverhampton.
Warner & Loundes - Dudley/Smethwick.
Dod(g)son - Heysham/Liverpool/Wolverhampton

Offline Jool

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Re: fought but not fallen
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 14 November 17 20:47 GMT (UK) »
Death record of Stanley Milroy
Dec Q 1995 Hyndburn and Rossendale, Lancs
Birth date 8th Nov 1908 - matches the date MaxD found on the service record
Robbins - Wolverhampton.
Spooner - Monmouthshire & Wolverhampton.
Warner & Loundes - Dudley/Smethwick.
Dod(g)son - Heysham/Liverpool/Wolverhampton

Online heywood

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Re: fought but not fallen
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 14 November 17 21:16 GMT (UK) »
Looking at the GRO Index for the illegitimate child, this one jumps out as a possible.

Stanley Milroy
born Dec Q 1908, Blackburn
Volume 08E  Page 310
There is a dash where the mother's maiden name should be, suggesting an illegitimate birth

Here is Stanley, with Elizabeth in 1911

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X4M5-X78
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