Author Topic: 1889: Gunner buys himself out for £10 after just 2 months. Was this common ?  (Read 1437 times)

Offline kob3203

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Re: 1889: Gunner buys himself out for £10 after just 2 months. Was this common ?
« Reply #18 on: Monday 13 November 17 16:21 GMT (UK) »
km1971 posted on another thread in 2009 "From the 1884 Army List, the 6th, 7th and 8th Batteries, 1st Brigade, Welsh Division, Garrison Artillery were in Halifax" - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=349955.0, so the 1888/1889/1890 Army Lists would say where the various batteries were.
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

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Offline MaxD

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Re: 1889: Gunner buys himself out for £10 after just 2 months. Was this common ?
« Reply #19 on: Monday 13 November 17 16:39 GMT (UK) »
As he was in Plymouth when he was discharged, it is likely that, although his record doesn't show it,  he had been posted to the Western Division.  Its depot was in Crownhill.

MaxD

Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

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Offline kob3203

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Re: 1889: Gunner buys himself out for £10 after just 2 months. Was this common ?
« Reply #20 on: Monday 13 November 17 16:56 GMT (UK) »
I'd been thinking that Plymouth was a logical place to board a troopship. And if you bought yourself out in Plymouth it seemed logical that the paperwork would be done at the local depot.
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

Offline MaxD

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Re: 1889: Gunner buys himself out for £10 after just 2 months. Was this common ?
« Reply #21 on: Monday 13 November 17 17:30 GMT (UK) »
Going back a step or two, this Walter Williams of the truncated Gunner career would have been 45 when the Great War broke out - does that add up with your Great War man?

MaxD
Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

Offline John915

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Re: 1889: Gunner buys himself out for £10 after just 2 months. Was this common ?
« Reply #22 on: Monday 13 November 17 23:22 GMT (UK) »
Good evening,

Buying commissions was by no means cheap, in 1839 an ensign/cornet rank cost £450 (38K in 2016) for the infantry. Cavalry was nearly twice that and Life Guards and Foot Guards about £1200 (over 100K). It applied to cavalry and infantry only and not RA or RE.

But having the means financially alone counted for little, you also had to be a gentleman. For that read aristocracy  or landed gentry. Trade meant you were low born and not a gentleman.

Purchasing of commissions ended in 1881? But you still needed to be a gentleman with substantial means to afford the lifestyle of an officer. Having means meant little without the breeding to go with it.

In my old regt the first officer to come out of a state school was in the mid 70s. All the others had been to public schools and came from very wealthy families including one Austrian Crown Prince. Although titles were never used in the regt, ever.

John915
Stephens, Fuller, Tedham, Bennett, Ransome (Sussex)
Rider (Fulham)
Stephens (Somerset)
Kentfield (Essex)

Offline kob3203

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Re: 1889: Gunner buys himself out for £10 after just 2 months. Was this common ?
« Reply #23 on: Tuesday 14 November 17 01:48 GMT (UK) »
Going back a step or two, this Walter Williams of the truncated Gunner career would have been 45 when the Great War broke out - does that add up with your Great War man?

MaxD
Indeed it does. Our Walter was born around 1869/1870 (year estimated from several censuses; an unconfirmed lookup by a contact of a contact says 1 Feb 1869) in Llanelli Carmarthenshire. We found his WWI service record a fewyears ago, 100% certain (20212 Welsh Army Corps, Carmarthenshire Battn) his listed family members and address are my great great grandmother and her four children including my great grandfather). He signed up on 1 Feb 1915, honourably discharged due to ill health on 26 May 1916.

He lied about his age, saying he was 10 years younger (so the family story that he "put boot-black in his hair to make himself look younger" might actually be true)

His WWI record states that he had previously served in the Carmarthen RGA (the family story says that "between the wars he'd go off with the militia" - Carmarthen RGA was a militia unit)

The family story also states that he served with the artillery in the Boer War, although we've found nothing to support this. But that story is the reason we're still looking at any pre-WWI Walter Williams records with a link to the artillery.
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

Offline kob3203

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Re: 1889: Gunner buys himself out for £10 after just 2 months. Was this common ?
« Reply #24 on: Monday 20 November 17 02:06 GMT (UK) »
MaxD said that it's likely that he'd been posted to the RGA Western Division. A couple of queries regarding this:
1) How common was it for a soldier who'd enlisted with one unit to be almost immediately posted to a 'different' unit.
2) At what hierarchical level would cross-postings commonly occur ? (this would be at Division level)

And out of interest (since although it's less likely, it's still a possibility that he simply didn't want to be posted abroad) - can anybody confirm where the various batteries (nine in total I think?) of the Royal (Garrison) Artillery Welsh Division 1st Brigade were in the first half of 1889 (specifically Feb to April) ?

Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

Offline MaxD

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Re: 1889: Gunner buys himself out for £10 after just 2 months. Was this common ?
« Reply #25 on: Monday 20 November 17 10:10 GMT (UK) »
To your queries:
The annotation 1st Bde Welsh Division would more than likely have been simply where he attested ie formally joined.  While I cannot yet provide chapter and verse, I am pretty sure that the Welsh Division were a militia force (there were many artillery volunteer units all over the country ) and he was joining the regular army for which I find reference only to Eastern, Western and Southern Divisions in the regular RA (RGA came later). 

Thus my thought that he didn't like Plymouth, England, the English or army life is what I go with.

MaxD


Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

Offline kob3203

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Re: 1889: Gunner buys himself out for £10 after just 2 months. Was this common ?
« Reply #26 on: Monday 20 November 17 11:04 GMT (UK) »
Ah, I think I see now - have I got this right?

The fact that the service record was found in WO97, not WO96 indicates that he joined the regular army, not the militia.

His papers say he actually joined at Newport (see image attached). So this was probably the depot (?) for Royal Artillery 1st Brigade Welsh Division (which was probably a Militia unit). But since he was actually joining the regular army, not the militia, he was immediately posted to a regular army RA unit.


And I'm still wondering - if Royal Artillery 1st Brigade Welsh Division was actually a militia unit as you suggest, could the Carmarthen RGA (Militia) be part of it ?
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)