Author Topic: 1889: Gunner buys himself out for £10 after just 2 months. Was this common ?  (Read 1391 times)

Offline MaxD

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Re: 1889: Gunner pays himself out for £10 after just 2 months. Was this common ?
« Reply #9 on: Monday 13 November 17 14:31 GMT (UK) »
[quote author=kob3203 link=topic=782491.msg6369750#msg6369750 date=151057629

Thanks. Just did a Google search for "ist battalion welsh regiment 1889" (yes, I mistyped) and the snippet for the top result (Wikipedia) included "...The 1st Battalion moved to Malta in 1889..."[/quote]

Just for accuracy's sake - he wasn't in the Welsh Regiment.  He was a Gunner in the Royal Artillery (RA) in the 1st Brigade Welsh Division which as far as I can determine was a garrison artillery unit.  He was discharged at Crownhill which was one of the Victorian forts at Plymouth.  Perhaps he didn't like England!

MaxD
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Offline kob3203

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Re: 1889: Gunner pays himself out for £10 after just 2 months. Was this common ?
« Reply #10 on: Monday 13 November 17 15:21 GMT (UK) »
If this http://www.reubique.com/buyout.htm (which references SKELLEY, A.R. The Victorian Army at Home: The Recruitment and Terms and Conditions of the British Regular, 1859-1899. McGill-Queen’s University Press, Montreal, 1977. ISBN 10: 0773503048 ISBN 13: 9780773503045 ) is correct then the annual number of men buying themselves out of the army was about 1,500-2,500.
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

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Offline kob3203

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Re: 1889: Gunner pays himself out for £10 after just 2 months. Was this common ?
« Reply #11 on: Monday 13 November 17 15:35 GMT (UK) »
Just for accuracy's sake - he wasn't in the Welsh Regiment.  He was a Gunner in the Royal Artillery (RA) in the 1st Brigade Welsh Division which as far as I can determine was a garrison artillery unit.  He was discharged at Crownhill which was one of the Victorian forts at Plymouth.  Perhaps he didn't like England!

MaxD

Thank you - accuracy's good! I'd read that bit at the top left of the image as 'RA 1st Bn Welsh Rg', but I can now see it's 'RA 1st Brig Welsh ?'

If this Gunner 71502 is our Walter Williams then he liked the garrison artillery enough to join the Carmarthen RGA Militia (that's mentioned on his WWI attestation as previous service,although we haven't found any other record). So maybe it was England that he didn't like. Or Plymouth particularly.

Could the 1889 RA 1st Brigade Welsh Division and the Carmarthen RGA Militia be related?
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

Online Sinann

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Re: 1889: Gunner pays himself out for £10 after just 2 months. Was this common ?
« Reply #12 on: Monday 13 November 17 15:42 GMT (UK) »
My great grandfather sold the pony to get the £10 for his son, the son later joined up again but too late to get the refund of the £10. Three of his younger brothers also joined the Army and were told in no uncertain terms that once in they had to stay the course. We still say "pony gone soldier on" in my family for any job you have no chance of getting out of.
What was the time limit for the refund ?
Would joining the militia entitle a paid-out soldier to a refund?

Sorry not sure how long, I just know the story from my mother telling me and his service record backs it up he served from 31/7/1890 to 29/10/1890 and rejoined 12/07/1892.

Offline wee Hugh

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Re: 1889: Gunner pays himself out for £10 after just 2 months. Was this common ?
« Reply #13 on: Monday 13 November 17 15:44 GMT (UK) »
My great-uncle bought himself out twice (we're agreed on the term now!).
The first time (1899) was after about a year in the Somerset Light Infantry.
Two thirds of the amount was refunded when he enlisted in the Cameron Highlanders later that year, but after two and half years he'd had enough of that too.

Admittedly he probably had private means, but in that case I wonder why he enlisted as a private rather than go for an officer's commission.  Does anyone know how common such "gentleman rankers" were?
Bagwell of Kilmore & Lisronagh, Co. Tipperary;  Beatty from Enniskillen;  Brown from Preston, Lancs.;  Burke of Ballydugan, Co. Galway;  Casement in the IoM and Co. Antrim;  Davison of Knockboy, Broughshane;  Frobisher;  Guillemard;  Harrison in Co. Antrim and Dublin;  Jones around Burton Pedwardine, Lincs.;  Lindesay of Loughry;  Newcomen of Camlagh, Co. Roscommon;  Shield;  Watson from Kidderminster;  Wilkinson from Leeds

Offline kob3203

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Re: 1889: Gunner pays himself out for £10 after just 2 months. Was this common ?
« Reply #14 on: Monday 13 November 17 15:45 GMT (UK) »
Sorry not sure how long, I just know the story from my mother telling me and his service record backs it up he served from 31/7/1890 to 29/10/1890 and rejoined 12/07/1892.
Thanks - from the dates you give it's probably months as opposed to years
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

Offline kob3203

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Re: 1889: Gunner pays himself out for £10 after just 2 months. Was this common ?
« Reply #15 on: Monday 13 November 17 15:47 GMT (UK) »
My great-uncle bought himself out twice (I mean bought: he didn't "pay" himself).
The first time (1899) was after about a year in the Somerset Light Infantry.
Two thirds of the amount was refunded when he enlisted in the Cameron Highlanders later that year, but after two and half years he'd had enough of that too.

Admittedly he probably had private means, but in that case I wonder why he enlisted as a private rather than go for an officer's commission.  Does anyone know how common such "gentleman rankers" were?
I've corrected the topic title and my first post !  ;D

(Edit: I'd originally written "paid £10 to get out", but when I rearranged the word order I changed paid to pays without thinking -that's my excuse!)
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

Offline kob3203

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Re: 1889: Gunner buys himself out for £10 after just 2 months. Was this common ?
« Reply #16 on: Monday 13 November 17 15:54 GMT (UK) »
Yes, it was a Garrison artillery unit. TNA has WO 16/713  - Royal Artillery (Garrison) Welsh Division 1st Brigade Batteries 7

WO16/698 to WO16/723 look to be muster booksand pay lists covering RA Welsh Division 1st Brigade batteries 1-9 and depot between 1882 and 1888. Doesn't seem to cover 1889though.
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

Offline kob3203

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Re: 1889: Gunner buys himself out for £10 after just 2 months. Was this common ?
« Reply #17 on: Monday 13 November 17 16:12 GMT (UK) »
Wikipedia indicates that 1st & 2nd Batteries, 1st Brigade, Welsh Division Garrison Artillery, Royal Artillery were in India in January 1888 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7th_(Meerut)_Division references the India List, January 1888. The first sentence of The Imperial Gazetteer of India, v. 21, p. 326. link from Wikipedia's Roorkee Cantonment page mentions that two heavy artillery batteries are usually stationed there)

Maybe he didn't want to go to India ?!
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)