Author Topic: St. Ninians Birth Records  (Read 3908 times)

Offline CaroleW

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Re: St. Ninians Birth Records
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 15 November 17 18:30 GMT (UK) »
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and 1881 shows Fintry

No it doesn't -  it shows Balfron - she is indexed as Hellan Edmonds and has 3 of her children living with her who show on earlier censuses

However - there is another 1881 entry matching Fintry shown as Mrs Peter Edmond b 1817 who is living with son Thomas b 1844 Balfron

The 1851 for Helen & Peter does not include a son Thomas b 1844.

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Peter's death certificate shows he died on April 16, 1859

You say husband Peter died 1859 but Helen & Peter appear on the 1861 - Peter is aged 60

Do we have 2 different families here?

Which of the Edmond children are you researching?

It may be best if you included full 1851/61/71/81 details
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Offline Forfarian

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Re: St. Ninians Birth Records
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 15 November 17 19:34 GMT (UK) »
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and 1881 shows Fintry
No it doesn't -  it shows Balfron - she is indexed as Hellan Edmonds and has 3 of her children living with her who show on earlier censuses
This is not the same Helen Edmond. See my earlier post above. This is Helen MacFarlane, widow of another of the numerous Peter Edmonds. The 1851 Census lists in Dunmore Street, Balfron Peter Edmond, 53, joiner; wife Helen, 32; daughter Helen, 4; son Peter, 2; son Daniel, 3 months. There is a baptism of their son Daniel MacFarlane Edmond in Balfron on 14 December 1851, which seems to be a year out as there is also a baptism of Daniel McFarland Edmond in the Associate Congregation on 5 January 1851. Helen McFarlane or Edmond died in Bonhill in 1898, aged 80. Peter Edmond, 85, died in Balfron in 1878. It would not surprise me if this Peter Edmond turned out to be a brother of Thomas Edmond, husband of Elizabeth Ewing, but in relation to Helen Davie, this family is a red herring.

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However - there is another 1881 entry matching Fintry shown as Mrs Peter Edmond b 1817 who is living with son Thomas b 1844 Balfron.
The 1851 for Helen & Peter does not include a son Thomas b 1844.
No. It wouldn't. The census never gives a date of birth. The 1851 census lists Thomas, aged 9 (if accurate, DoB 1841/1842), with Peter and Helen in Hillhead, Balfron. The 1881 lists Thomas, aged 37 (if accurate, DoB 1843/1844). A two-year discrepancy in an age in the census isn't unheard of.
It also lists Ellen D McLeod, 14, born Fintry. Helen Davie McLeod Edmond, illegitimate daughter of Agnes Edmond, was born on 6 January 1868 in Fintry. So her age in the 1881 census is a year out, but with given names Helen Davie, there can hardly be any doubt that she is Helen Davie's granddaughter and therefore that 'Mrs Peter Edmond' is Helen Davie.
Peter, son of Thomas Edmond and Janet Moir, was born in Bonhill on 21 October 1871. Thomas Edmond and Janet Moir were married in Bonhill on 30 December 1870. Janet Moir or Edmond died in Bonhill in 1879, aged 29. If futher proof is needed, the marriage certificate of Thomas Edmond will name his parents as Peter Edmond (deceased) and Helen Edmond, maiden surname Davie.

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You say husband Peter died 1859 but Helen & Peter appear on the 1861 - Peter is aged 60
Do we have 2 different families here?
Yes!! :)
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline CaroleW

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Re: St. Ninians Birth Records
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 15 November 17 20:07 GMT (UK) »
I think it’s best if you give us details as requested in my reply above to ensure we are looking at the right family
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Offline Forfarian

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Re: St. Ninians Birth Records
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 15 November 17 20:31 GMT (UK) »
I think it’s best if you give us details as requested in my reply above to ensure we are looking at the right family
I will echo that. You evidently still have information you haven't told us.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.


Offline FindinFamily

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Re: St. Ninians Birth Records
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 15 November 17 23:59 GMT (UK) »
Here is all the info I have regarding this family which I am fairly certain is true:
Helen Davie married Peter Edmond on May 18, 1841 in Fintry.  They had 8 children:
Thomas - 1845
James - 1846
Agnes - 1847
Ellen - 1849
Elizabeth - 1851
Jane - 1855
William - 1856
Peter - 1858

There son Peter is my great great grandfather.

Info for Helen Davie:

The 1851 census states Born St. Ninians abt 1818.  Address - Hillhead - Balfron
Peter 35
Helen 33
Thomas 9
James 7
Agnes 5
Elizabeth 4
Helen 2

The 1861 Census states Born St. Ninian abt 1820.  Address 19 Buchanan St. Balfron
Helen 41
Peter 7
William 5

The 1871 census states Born abt 1826 Balfron.  Address Coopers Lean Campbell Land - Bonhill
Ellen 45
James 26
Agnes 24
Jane 18
Peter 16
William 14
Ellen McLeod 3 (This is the illegitimate daughter of Agnes)

The 1881 census states:  Born abt 1817 Fintry.  Address 25 Church St. Bonhill.  (This is home of son Thomas)
Thomas 37
Mrs. Peter Edmond 64
Peter 9 (son of Thomas)
Ellen McLeod 14 (grand daughter of Helen)

Helen died November of 1886.  Death certificate was signed by her son Thomas, and states her parents are John Davie and Mary Wright.  I can find no record of a marriage between John Davie and Mary Wright, and can find no record of birth for Helen.  Due to Scottish naming convention, and the fact that this family followed this naming convention I believe that there may be an error on her death certificate and these are not her parents.  It also states that she was 60 when she died which would make her birthdate around 1826.  This would mean she was only 15 when she married which is unlikely.  So I am trying to find out when Helen was actually born, and who her parents were.  Thanks for all the help.

Offline CaroleW

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Re: St. Ninians Birth Records
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 16 November 17 00:20 GMT (UK) »
I think you should work on her birthyears from census entries rather than her death cert and rule out 1826 as being unrealistic

SP only shows one Helen Davie birth in the timescale and that was 1820 but in Larbert 
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Offline Forfarian

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Re: St. Ninians Birth Records
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 16 November 17 09:10 GMT (UK) »
Here is all the info I have regarding this family which I am fairly certain is true:
Helen Davie married Peter Edmond on May 18, 1841 in Fintry.  They had 8 children:
Thomas - 1845
James - 1846
Agnes - 1847
Ellen - 1849
Elizabeth - 1851
Jane - 1855
William - 1856
Peter - 1858
There son Peter is my great great grandfather.
I hate to rain on the party, but are you 100% sure that your great-grandfather Peter was the son of Peter Edmond and Helen Davie, rather than the son of Peter Edmond and Helen MacFarlane? Does your ggf's marriage or death certificate state his mother's maiden name? how old was he when he married, and how old was he when he died?

I ask because there is no index listing in the IGI of a son Peter to Peter Edmond and Helen Davie, but there is a son Peter to Peter Edmond and Helen MacFarlane, born in Balfron on 11 May 1857. Also, apart from this listing in Balfron in 1857, the SP births index lists no other Peter (or Patrick) Edmonds from 1855 until 1869.

In Scotland, the names Peter and Patrick are used interchangeable, as are the names Janet and Jessie.

Peter Edmond and Helen Macfarlane were married in Balfron in 1845 and had
Helen Finlayson, 1846
Patrick, 1849
Daniel, 1851
Isabella, 1853
James Taylor, 1855
Peter, 1857
Janet, 1858

In 1851 they were in Dunmore Street, Balfron
Peter, 53, joiner
Helen, 32
Helen, 4
Peter, 2
Daniel, 3 months

In 1861 they were in Bonhill
Peter, 60
Helen, 41
Helen, 14
Patrick, 12
Daniel, 10
Isabella, 8
James t, 6
Janet, 3

In 1871, still in Bonhill
Peter, 70
Helen, 57
Helen F, 23
Patrick, 21
Daniel, 19
Isabella H, 18
James F, 15
Jessie, 12

In 1881, still in Bonhill
Hellan Edmonds, 62
Patrick Edmonds, 32
Daniel Edmonds, 30
Jessie Edmonds, 22

1891, in Bonhill
Helen Edmond, 73

Peter Edmond and Helen Davie's son Peter was aged 7 in the 1861 census and 16 in 1871. This means that he must have been born between 1853 and 1854, not in 1858. At that age, 4 or 5 years is quite a large difference.


Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline CaroleW

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Re: St. Ninians Birth Records
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 16 November 17 09:57 GMT (UK) »
If Peter is your ancestor - does his marriage or death cert confirm his mother’s maiden name was Davie?
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Offline FindinFamily

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Re: St. Ninians Birth Records
« Reply #17 on: Thursday 16 November 17 15:05 GMT (UK) »
I know for a fact that Peter Edmond is my great grandfather.  His death certificate from 1908 shows that he was 50 when he died.  His marriage certificate from 1879 shows he was 24. It also states that his parents are Peter Edmond and Helen Davie.  So there is a question of his birth, between 1855 and 1858, however, based on these facts and that I have an aunt named Helen Davie Edmond, I know this is the correct person.