Author Topic: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria  (Read 3184 times)

Offline Janelle

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Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
« on: Sunday 19 November 17 06:14 GMT (UK) »
Margaret Harper married George William Williams 10 Feb 1853 at Fryers Creek, Victoria.

M and G W have 12 children firstly at Fryers Creek and then at Chewton. Youngest child Ellen Lettitia b 1874.
I expect that he was a coal miner as some of his sons are involved in this endeavour.

I have bought their marriage certificate and her death certificate. I can't find a death for George William.

No ages, nor profession, birthplace, parents on their marriage certificate.
The document is not a regular printed form. It is a handwritten certificate made out by the Church of Scotland minister James Low, it starts with George certifying that he is a member of or hold communion with that church.
George and Margaret both sign, as do their witnesses.
The witnesses were a German couple, Henry and Maria Matz, who according to Anc* trees move away to South Australia.
If George was 21 years old he would have been born 1830.

On Margaret's death certificate ...
Died Feb 1910 at Chewton, informant was a son in law William Scott, married to her 5 child Emma.
Her age was given as 75, so born about 1836, and birthplace Wales, 57 years in Victoria, married at age 17 to George William Williams.
She might have arrived in Victoria within the year prior to her 1853 marriage, so during 1852.
Her parents unknown to the informant.

In the 1903 electoral roll, which is probably the earliest available as just after federation, M is a nurse, living in nearby Walhalla, another mining town, George is not present.

So, what I can not find from the records available is anything of Margaret's origins is she possibly came from Wales, that they were both literate.

Iím researching for my auntieís 90 year old boyfriend, a direct descendant of Margaret and George William Williams, and their son 2nd son William Nathan b 1859 d 1895.

The other day I posted a message on an old post about solider Duncan Harper and wife Letitia Kennedy Harper and the baptism of their dau Margaret Harper in Kent 1834
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=508263.0
there is a 2nd almost identical post with subject line all lower case by same RC'er
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=504378.msg3621518#msg3621518

As I said on that thread, I can not see a link to these people. Anc* throws out the 1834 Kent baptism as a hint. No trees that are quoting this are showing Margaret's death certificate, so no proof.

These same trees have grabbed another GWW who died 1888 in Caulfield, but he was married to Susannah, and was more likely to own the mine than be digging in one.

Any suggestions for finding Margaret's journey to Victoria as a young woman c 1852?

Any suggestions for finding George Williams' origins or his death?

Salute,
Janelle

Goodhind Coleman Wes(t)cott Taylor Tuck Sa(u)nders Warren How(e) Sminney Radford Frost Frank(e) Pool(e) Se(a)rle Moore Quick Veysey Ware Stoat(e) Kerslake Channon Drake Melhuish Hodge(s) in Devon;
Warren Baker Carpenter Crocombe Slocombe Greenslade Edbrooke Houndel Webber Tidball Sully Tout Veysey Wheddon in Somerset;
Bla(y)ney Johnston Crozier Moore Fleming Moffitt in Fermanagh and possibly Moffitt in Tyrone; Killen Chapman in Down; Dwyer Enright in Limerick; Linehan Murphy Driscoll in Cork

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Offline rosball

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Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 19 November 17 06:46 GMT (UK) »
Hi Janelle,
   Here is an obit to Margaret http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198864240
and a description of her funeral and more family info http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198863338

  Ros
Let's not tolerate bullying !

Herrington Kent  Henderson Scotland Kerr Scotland Reston Scotland  Smith Scotland  Kellow Cornwall  Doney Cornwall  Wadeson Lancashire  Whiteley Yorkshire Gregan Ireland

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Offline sparrett

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Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 19 November 17 06:58 GMT (UK) »
Her Death notice describes her as.... Relict of George WILLIAMS....


http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198863338?

This may of course, not be the truth but a face-saving device. However, worth noting

Here is a 1886 sighting for George  in Chewton with family.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/88538155

Sue

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline sparrett

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Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 19 November 17 07:45 GMT (UK) »

Have you phoned the Chewton Cemetery and asked for a check of their register?

http://www.australiancemeteries.com.au/vic/mt_alexander/chewton.htm

Is George there?

Sue
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Janelle

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Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 19 November 17 23:11 GMT (UK) »
Thankyou guys for the trove links.

Didnít think of that 😂

Iím not very skilled at searching in my own backyard, ie 1800ís Australia, and Victoria especially as my own ancestors were nsw and qld.

Iím on route to work now so will check out your information, links and advise later on.

Salute,
Janelle
Goodhind Coleman Wes(t)cott Taylor Tuck Sa(u)nders Warren How(e) Sminney Radford Frost Frank(e) Pool(e) Se(a)rle Moore Quick Veysey Ware Stoat(e) Kerslake Channon Drake Melhuish Hodge(s) in Devon;
Warren Baker Carpenter Crocombe Slocombe Greenslade Edbrooke Houndel Webber Tidball Sully Tout Veysey Wheddon in Somerset;
Bla(y)ney Johnston Crozier Moore Fleming Moffitt in Fermanagh and possibly Moffitt in Tyrone; Killen Chapman in Down; Dwyer Enright in Limerick; Linehan Murphy Driscoll in Cork

Offline cando

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Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
« Reply #5 on: Monday 20 November 17 00:19 GMT (UK) »
Could this be his death?

WILLIAMS George William
Parents unknown
At Kew Lunatic Asylum  60 years  1892  Reg#10727

https://www.prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/health-and-welfare/mental-health-records-1849-1912
WILLIAMS George William  60 years  Born London  Occupation Miner
Hospital record  2 Aug 1892  Kew
Source Kew Asylum case books 1871-1912.  VPRS 7398/P1 13.

https://www.prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/inquests-and-other-coronial-records/inquests-deaths-deposition
WILLIAMS George William
Cause of death Acute inflammation of lungs
Location of inquest: Kew Asylum Date of inquest 31 Aug 1892

Link to file download the file.  Click on view record.  He was admitted to the Asylum with dementia.  It was the usual practice to conduct an inquest to deaths in public institutions in that era.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l2p/

Cando

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline judb

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Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
« Reply #6 on: Monday 20 November 17 06:08 GMT (UK) »
There is a (very) tenuous link to the baptism of a Margaret HARPER at Chatham, UK in November 1834, as the mother of this child is given as "Letitia" and George and Margaret's youngest child is Ellen Letitia WILLIAMS.
 
This death is shown on the Australian death index:
   Letitia HARPER,85, residence Adelaide
Died 21 Sep 1893 at Adelaide
Registered: Adelaide South Australia, Page 27, Vol 213

The only person mentioned in the death and funeral notices for this lady is her son-in-law, George INNES.   :-\ Notices say she is a colonist of 45 years - arrival abt 1848.  (Notices found in TROVE, search September 1893)

Judith
DYER - Wilts, London, Somerset, MIDLANE - Hants, Wilts, SONE - Hants, WRIGHT - London, Hants, SEAGER - Deptford, DWYER, FERGUSON - Victoria, MASON - Woodford Vic, BALLARD - South Wales, GOULDBY - Lowestoft
"Time present and time past are both perhaps present in time future..." T S Eliot

UK Census information Crown Copyrightt, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline judb

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Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
« Reply #7 on: Monday 20 November 17 06:33 GMT (UK) »
This would appear to be the arrival for Letitia
HARPER, Letitia (wife), 1/2 ch arrived in SA 1848-10-23 aboard Roman Emperor from London

No-one else of that surname on that passenger list.
http://www.familyhistorysa.org//shipping/passengerlists.html

Newspaper reports say that most passengers of this voyage of the Roman Emperor were Irish orphans. 

This report mentions Mrs Harper
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206979947
Shipping: October 23óThe ship Roman. Emperor, 792 tons, W. Champion, from Plymouth. Passengers
óMr James Burnham. R. Eades, M.D.. Mrs Eades and infant, Mr and Mrs Maguire and four children. Miss Taylor, Miss Gamble, Mrs Harper, 8 married couple 8 children, and 219 Irish Orphan
female emigrants. No deaths occurred during the Voyage.


Judith
DYER - Wilts, London, Somerset, MIDLANE - Hants, Wilts, SONE - Hants, WRIGHT - London, Hants, SEAGER - Deptford, DWYER, FERGUSON - Victoria, MASON - Woodford Vic, BALLARD - South Wales, GOULDBY - Lowestoft
"Time present and time past are both perhaps present in time future..." T S Eliot

UK Census information Crown Copyrightt, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Janelle

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Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
« Reply #8 on: Monday 20 November 17 10:23 GMT (UK) »
There is a (very) tenuous link to the baptism of a Margaret HARPER at Chatham, UK in November 1834, as the mother of this child is given as "Letitia" and George and Margaret's youngest child is Ellen Letitia WILLIAMS.
 
This death is shown on the Australian death index:
   Letitia HARPER,85, residence Adelaide
Died 21 Sep 1893 at Adelaide
Registered: Adelaide South Australia, Page 27, Vol 213

The only person mentioned in the death and funeral notices for this lady is her son-in-law, George INNES.   :-\ Notices say she is a colonist of 45 years - arrival abt 1848.  (Notices found in TROVE, search September 1893)

Judith

Thankyou Judith, for your searches into Letitia Harper.

I donít see a clear link connected to Margaret.
I shall check your leads thoroughly, and post what I find.

As I said before, Margaretís d/c 1910 gives her age as 75, that she was married in Victoria to GWW at age 17, and that she was in Victoria 57 years, and born in Wales.
Their marriage was 1853, which I have the cert for, so very soon after her arriving.

The middle names that M and G gave the children might be more for fashion and be less significant than the first names, which is the red herring that Anc* trees leap to Duncan and Letitia Harper, but without evidence.

Salute,
Janelle




Goodhind Coleman Wes(t)cott Taylor Tuck Sa(u)nders Warren How(e) Sminney Radford Frost Frank(e) Pool(e) Se(a)rle Moore Quick Veysey Ware Stoat(e) Kerslake Channon Drake Melhuish Hodge(s) in Devon;
Warren Baker Carpenter Crocombe Slocombe Greenslade Edbrooke Houndel Webber Tidball Sully Tout Veysey Wheddon in Somerset;
Bla(y)ney Johnston Crozier Moore Fleming Moffitt in Fermanagh and possibly Moffitt in Tyrone; Killen Chapman in Down; Dwyer Enright in Limerick; Linehan Murphy Driscoll in Cork