Author Topic: Allen(Patrickswell, Limerick) connections with St. Ledger(Doneraile house)  (Read 604 times)

Offline Gearoid60

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I'm trying to see if there was a connection between these 2 families.
I'm working on notes left by my late father.
I've not had much luck in finding Johns ancestors or where he finished up in the States.
I know his father, a John Allen and his mother Margaret Cotter-Bennett of Rockhill estate in Charleville, Co. Cork.

Below a section of my fathers notes:
"As a teenager, John Allen was sent to Lord Doneraile’s stables at Doneraile Co Cork, to train as a Jockey. The Donerailes, whose family name was St Ledger, were related to him through his ancestors, the Allen’s of Patrickswell. Perhaps it should be mentioned in passing that John Allen’s grandaunt, Agnes Allen of Patrickswell, was, at this time of which we are speaking, the wife of   The McCarthy-Murrough. She had a sister called Elizabeth Allen, Hence the names Agnes and Elizabeth in our Aherne family.John Allen immigrated to America as a young man. He became attached to the Payne- Whitney stables, in Carolina. As a Jockey, he was quiet famous on the American scene Our Mother, his sister, used to speak much of his attainments, saying that he rode the winner of one of the American Classics (Kentucky Derby, perhaps).At a later stage in his career, he was manager- trainer for the Payne-Whitney stables. Later he became a trainer and owner in his own right. He trained and owned several well- known horses".

I would appreciate any information or help.
Thank you.

Offline Josephine

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Re: Allen(Patrickswell, Limerick) connections with St. Ledger(Doneraile house)
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 22 November 17 18:00 GMT (UK) »
Gearoid60,

Can you provide an approximate time frame for these people and events?

When might John Allen have been born? Do you have any other details on him? Was Allen his surname?

Regards,
Josephine
England: Barnett; Beaumont; Christy; George; Holland; Parker; Pope; Salisbury
Scotland: Currie; Curror; Dobson; Muir; Oliver; Pryde; Turnbull; Wilson
Ireland: Carson; Colbert; Coy; Craig; McGlinchey; Riley; Rooney; Trotter; Waters/Watters

Offline Gearoid60

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Re: Allen(Patrickswell, Limerick) connections with St. Ledger(Doneraile house)
« Reply #2 on: Friday 24 November 17 11:39 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for your interest Josephine.John Robert Allen was born circa 1837 in Patrickswell Co Limerick and due to some family problems he was a made a ward of the Protestant Dean of Limerick he trained as Vet. He didn't fully qualify as he should have gone to Edinburgh for his Degree and on that account he wasn't allowed Practice around Limerick. He married Margaret Cotter-Bennett of Rockhill Estate, Charleville, Co Cork, who was a Dressmaker. She worked with her Aunt in Bruree. It is known that they eloped to marry as he was Protestant and she a Catholic. He died on the 16th December1894 and is buried in Kinure cemetery which is near Oysterhaven.
His son John Robert was born on the 9th of January 1861. I found his birth records in Charleville.
John Allen  son of John Robert Allen, Patrickswell  Co Limerick.  And Margaret Cotter-Bennett, of Rockhill Estate, Charleville.  Born approx.  late 1860s.  His parents came to live at Oatlands, Belgooly, Co Cork, with their clear knowledge, I reckon, that they were coming to live amongst certain families who were of Scottish origin, like John Allen`s father, who was from a Scottish family originally. John R Allen was related to Col Tom Knolles , whose Estate at Oatlands he managed.This family relation is evidenced by the fact that when John Allen died, in 1893, the Miss Knolles, sisters of Tom Knolles, wanted him to be buried in the Knolles grave, at Kinure, Oysterhaven. He is, in fact buried in the same Cemetery, where the Allen grave is. Because of the difference in religion, the request was not acceded to.    John Allen (Jnr.) lived with his Mothers relatives in Charleville up to the age of about six. He was then sent to his parents at Oatlands Estate .The following interesting anecdote is told of his coming to his parents. Since he was so young and could not travel on his own, a tag was put on the child, giving name and address. This was not an unusual occurrence in Ireland at the time. He was put on the train, and was immediately taken care of by the fellow- passengers. He arrived safe and sound at his parents? home.    As a teenager, John Allen was sent to Lord Doneraile`s stables at Doneraile Co Cork, to train as a Jockey. The Donerailes, whose family name was St Ledger, were related to him through his ancestors, the Allen`s of Patrickswell. Perhaps it should be mentioned in passing that John Allen`s Grand aunt, Agnes Allen of Patrickswell, was, at this time of which we are speaking, the wife of   The McCarthy-Murrough. She had a sister called Elizabeth Allen, Hence the names Agnes and Elizabeth in our Aherne family.  John Allen immigrated to America as a young man.

Again these are from my fathers notes and I haven't found any records to back them up.
I'd appreciate any help.

Offline Josephine

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Re: Allen(Patrickswell, Limerick) connections with St. Ledger(Doneraile house)
« Reply #3 on: Friday 24 November 17 15:54 GMT (UK) »
Gearoid60,

Newspapers.com has digitized newspapers from North Carolina and South Carolina. There are many mentions of the Payne Whitney stables and horses but I couldn't find anything pertaining to your John Allen. It would take a more thorough search than I can do to try to discover if your John Allen's name was mentioned but not picked up by the search engine (it happens).

Here are two examples of what I was able to find:

The Daily Free Press (Kinston, North Carolina)
Thurs., Dec. 28, 1899

“To Manage the Whitney Stable.
“Henry Payne Whitney will next season manage the racing interests of his father, the Hon. William C. Whitney, which have assumed enormous proportions. Young Mr. Whitney is a good amateur rider and a keen judge of a horse. Next season the Whitney stable will be divided into three divisions. Samuel Hildreth, the present trainer, will have charge of one, Thomas Welch of another and Peter Wimmer of the third. Mr. Whitney pays no attention to the betting ring, but during the past season his stable was the second largest money earner, his horses having placed $61,550 to their credit.”

The Weekly Economist (Elizabeth City, North Carolina)
Fri., April 27, 1900

“One of the young men who will be among the richest of men of the first decade of the Twentieth Century, is Harry Payne Whitney. He is at present the heir of three great fortunes. His father, Wm. C. Whitney, is worth probably not less than $75,000,000; his uncle, Col. Oliver Payne, has nearly as much, and it will go to him. His wife, who was Gertrude Vanderbilt, will receive from her father something like $15,000,000; so, taking it all in all, Harry Payne Whitney is liable to be one of the richest men in the United States a quarter  of a century hence.”

This Wikipedia page has information about Harry Payne Whitney, including details about the races his horses won:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Payne_Whitney

Perhaps if you follow some of those links, or search on some of those details, it might lead you to some concrete information about John Allen.

Good luck!

Regards,
Josephine
England: Barnett; Beaumont; Christy; George; Holland; Parker; Pope; Salisbury
Scotland: Currie; Curror; Dobson; Muir; Oliver; Pryde; Turnbull; Wilson
Ireland: Carson; Colbert; Coy; Craig; McGlinchey; Riley; Rooney; Trotter; Waters/Watters


Offline Josephine

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Re: Allen(Patrickswell, Limerick) connections with St. Ledger(Doneraile house)
« Reply #4 on: Friday 24 November 17 15:58 GMT (UK) »
P.S.

According to Wikipedia, Harry's brother William also had a horse stable:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payne_Whitney
England: Barnett; Beaumont; Christy; George; Holland; Parker; Pope; Salisbury
Scotland: Currie; Curror; Dobson; Muir; Oliver; Pryde; Turnbull; Wilson
Ireland: Carson; Colbert; Coy; Craig; McGlinchey; Riley; Rooney; Trotter; Waters/Watters