A 1918 marriage in Church Kirk

[lancsann]

Moderator comment: edited to remove information from subscription site.
John's mother?

Baptism: 7 Oct 1866 St Paul, Withnell, Lancashire, England
Cathrine Ann Snape - Dau of Sally Snape
    Abode: Withnell
    Occupation: Weaver

[Pennines]

colee -- I am rather concerned about where you ordered the marriage certificate from if the estmated despatch isn't until 14th December.

Normally if you order from the General Register Office in Southport it takes about a week.

https://www.gro.gov.uk  -- you can order on line from here (£9.25)

In some cases you can order from the local register office on line as well - but I don't think you can yet from Lancashire - you can print off the order form and send in the post -- also takes just a few days and costs £10.

I would advise you to only order from one or the other - and NOT from the Genealogy search sites who will charge a premium.

[colee]

you're really kind to bring it up, but funnily enough I did order it from the GRO, which is the slightly cheaper option as you say, and a simple format for ordering. I don't know why it quoted such a long lead time, but I wouldn't be expecting it to take that long.
I really appreciate the heads up from you though, I find it quite frustrating that family research costs add up so quickly - I have ordered 3 certs from the GRO in the last few days which indeed adds up to rather a lot of money. But it'll be worth it if I find the holy grail of my 'lost' relatives.
thanks again

ps thank you lancsann for your post about a possible John Butterworth, I am just looking through all of my notes again to recheck dates of birth etc.
The 1901 census records John's grandmother as Sarah rather than Sally Snape, as per the baptism record you mention, but maybe they are the same person...

[Pennines]

I am pleased you ordered it from GRO -- I was worried you may have ordered it via one of the genealogy sites who do give you the option of ordering via them (at a cost!!)

I agree the costs can mount up -- but then whatever hobby we might have costs something - I have to look at it that way - and also I enjoy the hobby. There are just those occasions when you HAVE to order a certificate - to confirm or discount a possibility. This is one such case, otherwise you will always be wondering if it's the right John!

By the way Sally was sometimes used as a nickname for Sarah.

[colee]

it is curious though that I can't find a birth for a John Butterworth in 1892/3 either on the GRO or the OPC sites. John's parents Catherine Ann Snape and my great grandfather William Thomas Butterworth were married in the parish of Christ Church, Blackburn on 11 Jan 1892. I have tried to look for baptisms in that church just in case but can't seem to find a register linked to Christ Church.

So perhaps John wasn't christened a Butterworth?

[Pennines]

Please forgive me if you already know this but the marriage of William Thomas to Catherine is included on the Lancashire marriages on Ancestry.

Christ Church Baptisms are also on there - but John does not seem to have been baptised at that church.

For a Lancashire marriage it is always useful to search those records on Ancestry first as if that particular church is included - for a marriage AFTER 1 July 1837 - the record is identical to a marrige cert you would order from GRO.

In case you don't know how to find these records on Ancestry (and as I say - forgive me if you do)

1. Go to 'search' on the ribbon menu at the top of the search pane on the home page.
2. From the drop down menue - select 'Card Catalogue'
3. Type 'Lancashire marriages' in the search box - and select relevant date range.
4. enter search terms.

You can use this Card Catalogue for all sorts -- just input key words - just to see if there are any datasets which may be useful for you -- eg other county names, apprenticeships, poor, non-conformist etc etc.

If you look at Lancashire Baptisms -- Christ Church at Blackburn IS there.

[colee]

That is useful, thank you.

I haven't been using the card catalogue search function which I see is useful, I did manage to find the church collections before through the right panel but may have missed some by doing it that way. I think it may have been the OPC site which sent me off course as I couldn't find the Christ Church register there - but I have now found it through the card catalogue.

Going back to John - I should qualify that by saying I couldn't find his birth on the GRO or lancashirebmd sites, I meant in conjunction with a Catherine maiden name Snape.

[Pennines]

colee --- I think I must have missed something with this query. Going back to your post about John with his mother Catherine in 1911 --- he is shown as born in Rochdale on that census.

In 1901 -- the William Thomas born in Blackburn is in Chatham - so the Butterworth family are never together as a group.

If you haven't found John's birth or baptism - how do you know that his parents are William Thomas Butterworth and Catherine Snape?

[colee]

Yes, I'm starting to doubt it myself.

But William Thomas Butterworth married Catherine Ann Snape in January 1892 in Blackburn - maybe because it was disapproved of if say she was already pregnant with John, WT was 21, she was 25, they married in his area of Blackburn rather than Withnell (didn't couples usually marry in the bride's family area) where she was from as are lots of other Snapes. A son John Butterworth (according to the 2 census records) was born in 1892 so that date fits with the marriage, and he stayed with his mother Catherine (who now calls herself Butterworth) at least until he was 18, according to the 1911 census. Here Catherine describes herself as a widow. They had already left Withnell and moved to Farnworth by 1901 with Catherine's mother Sarah Snape. Catherine's mother made up the family unit with her daughter and grandson - she herself was a single mother I think.

Yes it is curious that the 1911 census shows John's place of birth as Rochdale; in 1901 it is listed as Withnell (I think before I read it as Haliwell, but see now that it's Withnell).

William Thomas left Lancashire with my great grandmother Sarah Ellen Yates some time before 1900 and they settled in Chatham where my grandmother, great aunt and uncle were born. Sarah Ellen's mother Ann, 2 sisters and 2 brothers also came to Chatham (1 brother stayed behind in Lancashire but died of TB in 1906).

My aunt never met her grandfather William Thomas, the only thing she remembers being said about him is that he died in a brawl. I don't know where. I don't think William Thomas and my grandmother married, although her 3 children by him were christened Butterworth. My great grandmother married another man, George Thomas Waghorn, in 1906 and my grandmother tended to use the name Waghorn rather than Butterworth so William Thomas was rather forgotten about.

Does that help at all?