Merchant Navy Ships

[Bumblebee083]

My grandfather Henry Brown was an engineer in the merchant navy. On the reverse of his card it lists two ships - Anglo Saxon and Solange. Anglo Saxon was torpedoed in WWII with only one survivor, not grandfather. I have seen the crew list and he wasn't a member. How can I find out any other ships he may have sailed on. Solange was also destroyed before the war

[Westoe]

Hello Bumblebee083,

Welcome to RootsChat. Can you give a little more information please, to "help the helpers".

What was his full name? When and where was he born? What "card" are you refering to?

Cheers,
Westoe

[Bumblebee083]

Hello Westoe
The info you require is:-  Henry Brown, born 13 August 1891 at Woolwich, London.  The card referred to is CR 2 the Discharge Certificate. On the reverse is (149317) 22.7.30 and (161279) 21.2.32. The first one is Solange and the second S/S Anglo Saxon. This card is stamped Jul 1932 Runcorn.
His Discharge No. is 732240. Identity Certificate No. 121547.  Hope this helps.

[HMac]

The CR 2 and CR 10 cards you have are from the Fourth Register of Seamen 1918-1941. The CR2 card does not normally record service after 1941 although some do. To look for service after 1941 you would need to consult records in the Fifth Register of Seamen 1941-1972. These are held at Kew in piece BT 382. Did he serve in WW2?

Pre 1941 cards do contain some mistakes and omissions.

He appears to have served during WW1 as his medal card is here  BT 351/1/16214 - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7983718

Regards
Hugh

[Westoe]

Thank you, Bumblebee. See, we are already making progress. Hugh has given you good information.

Since he was an engineer, he may have had an engineer's certificate. Not all such certificates have survived, but if his has, it may be at the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich. Worth investigating.

I have never seen an engineer's certificate myself, but if they are anything like Masters and Mates certificates, often there is a Record of Service included which lists his previous ships and dates aboard.

It does require registering with their online ordering system, Aeon, but there is no charge for that. Here is the link:
http://www.rmg.co.uk/national-maritime-museum/caird-library/masters-mates-engineers-skippers-certificates-request-form

Cheers,
Westoe

[seaweed]

Just to add a little. SOLANGE official number 149317 was first registered at Southampton in 1928. She was a 26ton sailing Ketch owned by Mrs Mary AVJ Vernon address is given as Pembroke works, Pembroke Walk, Earls Court, London.
She first appears in the Mercantile Navy List in 1930, no entry for 1931. She appears in 1932 converted to a motor vessel with a slightly altered tonnage of 29 tons. Still owned by Mrs Vernon address Lower lock Cottage, Chichester Canal, Birdham, Sussex.
Just wondering if your ancestor was involved with the conversion from sail to motor. The registration papers for SOLANGE can be obtained from the National Archive.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C13375547
The microfilmed records outlined by Westoe are also available from the NA. It all depends on who wrote up these documents as to the information contained within.
SOLANGE being such a small vessel did not have crew agreements or Logbooks, so you cannot trace your mans previous ships via C/A's and Logbooks.
Checked the 1915 C/A's which are on line. Nothing for your man.
You may find this website offers some help with your research.
http://www.crewlist.org.uk/
 

[Westoe]

Hello Bumblebee,

Seaweed's information suggests to me that Mary Vernon was a wealthy society woman and SOLANGE was a personal pleasure craft.

Something that I have learned in research is to never be afraid to detour sideways in the hopes of moving forward. A quick Google turns up nothing about "Vernon +Pembroke Works", but a quick skim of British Newspaper Archive for "SOLANGE +Vernon" does turn up this:

 Hampshire Telegraph
FALL FROM A YACHT

... Easter Monday brought tragedy to Mr. and Mrs. U. S. Vernon, one of their three little children being drowned in the Chichester Canal by falling in, some way unknown, from the deck of their motor yacht Solange, which is moored in the lower lock. Birdham. The ...

Published: Friday 21 April 1933
Newspaper: Hampshire Telegraph
County: Hampshire, England
Type: Article | Words: 195 | Page: 11 | Tags: none

I don't have a sub to either BNA or FindMyPast (which includes BNA) so can't read the actual article but there may be leads there - an inquest perhaps? names of crew members who dove in to try to rescue the child? the father's occupation? Learning more about the Vernons and their travels may also tell you more about your grandfather's experiences.

And ... if they were society people, you may turn up a photo of SOLANGE. One possible source that comes to mind is The Illustrated London News archive.

Cheers,
Westoe

EDIT:
You wrote in post #1 of this thread: "Solange was also destroyed before the war."

That may not be so. Here's another snippett from BNA using search parameter "motor yacht SOLANGE":

... Weather Drove Them In Bad weather last week-end sent two vessels into Harbour for shelter. One of them, the motor yacht Solange (19 tons), owned by Mr. H. F. Owen, of Shoreham, was assisted to a point near Ramsgate by Deal boatmen after she had been seen ...

Published: Friday 19 December 1947
Newspaper: Thanet Advertiser
County: Kent, England
Type: Article | Words: 133 | Page: 4 | Tags: none

[Westoe]

BINGO!! Yes, there was an inquest. I've found the child's name (Peter Claude Vernon) on his father's gravestone and that has led to 5 more hits in BNA. I suggest that you read them all.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/82489286

Cheers,
Westoe

[Westoe]

Hello again, Bumblebee083,

I expect by now that you have seen my replies of earlier today as you have been signed in here since I posted them.

I have a bit more that is purely speculation based on what we have so far which I would prefer to send to you in a PM (= Personal/Private Message) but you can't access that internal feature here at RootsChat until you have made at least 3 posts in the public forum, so please do post again in the next few days before I come online again.

And ... what else do you know about your grandfather's working life? Do you have his marriage certificate? Was his occupation given there? Or on the birth certificates of his children?

Also, if you do not have a subscription to FindMyPast to read those newspaper articles, try your public library. Some of them do have subs accessible via their in-house public-use computers.

Or ... see if there is an LDS (Mormon) Family History Centre anywhere near you because they do have subs. Here is the link to finding where they are located worldwide:
https://www.familysearch.org/locations/

Cheers,
Westoe