Author Topic: Confused re records for Bdr. 72162 Arthur Jarman RFA  (Read 437 times)

Offline alison300

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Confused re records for Bdr. 72162 Arthur Jarman RFA
« on: Monday 25 December 17 21:26 GMT (UK) »
According to the CWG site, Arthur died 26 August 1914 and is on the La Ferte-sous-Jouarre Memorial to the Missing.

Ancestry’s Soldier’s Died gives the same date of death; however Soldiers’ Effects clearly records him as dying 3 April 1915 - I assume that was an error made at the time?

Apart from the dates being different, I’m also confused because Ancestry describes him as dying from wounds as a Prisoner of War – if that is the case why is he on a memorial to the “missing”?
Wright (West Ham, Stratford, St Lukes, Cripplegate,
Widenstrom (Chicago and Minnesota)
Swain (Cripplegate, St Lukes)
Wolfe (St Giles in the Fields)
Willis (Gt. Leighs, Margaretting, Gt. Waltham, Ilford, Brentford)
Bryant (Bristol, Glos)
Searle
Keyworth (Yorkshire)

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Offline Jebber

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Re: Confused re records for Bdr. 72162 Arthur Jarman RFA
« Reply #1 on: Monday 25 December 17 22:19 GMT (UK) »
Not sure where you see 3 April 1915, Soldiers Effects says date unknown.
CHOULES All ,  COKER Harwich Essex & Rochester Kent 
COLE Gt. Oakley, & Lt. Oakley, Essex.
DUNCAN Kent
EVERITT Colchester,  Dovercourt & Harwich Essex
GULLIVER/GULLOFER Fifehead Magdalen Dorset
HORSCROFT Kent.
KING Sturminster Newton, Dorset. MONK Odiham Ham.
SCOTT Wrabness, Essex
WILKINS Stour Provost, Dorset.
WICKHAM All in North Essex.
WICKHAM Medway Towns, Kent from 1880
WICKHAM, Ipswich, Suffolk.

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Offline Jebber

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Re: Confused re records for Bdr. 72162 Arthur Jarman RFA
« Reply #2 on: Monday 25 December 17 22:40 GMT (UK) »
I see there is another entry dated five months after the first, it is that which shows the April death date, so presumably the  CWGC Commission was not updated. I don’t suppose they would have had any reason to follow up later information.
CHOULES All ,  COKER Harwich Essex & Rochester Kent 
COLE Gt. Oakley, & Lt. Oakley, Essex.
DUNCAN Kent
EVERITT Colchester,  Dovercourt & Harwich Essex
GULLIVER/GULLOFER Fifehead Magdalen Dorset
HORSCROFT Kent.
KING Sturminster Newton, Dorset. MONK Odiham Ham.
SCOTT Wrabness, Essex
WILKINS Stour Provost, Dorset.
WICKHAM All in North Essex.
WICKHAM Medway Towns, Kent from 1880
WICKHAM, Ipswich, Suffolk.

Offline alison300

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Re: Confused re records for Bdr. 72162 Arthur Jarman RFA
« Reply #3 on: Monday 25 December 17 22:44 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Jebber - I thought I was going mad! 

Presumably that's why the CWG site has him listed on a Memorial to the Missing - perhaps his body was located and not reported correctly.  Very unusual I think.  Thanks for your reply.

Happy Christmas :)
Wright (West Ham, Stratford, St Lukes, Cripplegate,
Widenstrom (Chicago and Minnesota)
Swain (Cripplegate, St Lukes)
Wolfe (St Giles in the Fields)
Willis (Gt. Leighs, Margaretting, Gt. Waltham, Ilford, Brentford)
Bryant (Bristol, Glos)
Searle
Keyworth (Yorkshire)

Offline Jebber

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Re: Confused re records for Bdr. 72162 Arthur Jarman RFA
« Reply #4 on: Monday 25 December 17 23:02 GMT (UK) »
I expect there were quite a few reported missing who’s death date came to light later, it would be easy for mistakes to happen. I had a man who’s death was recorded on the CWGC site, in fact he survived, married and died in the 1950s. They removed his entry after I sent the them all the information,

Happy Christmas to you too. :)
CHOULES All ,  COKER Harwich Essex & Rochester Kent 
COLE Gt. Oakley, & Lt. Oakley, Essex.
DUNCAN Kent
EVERITT Colchester,  Dovercourt & Harwich Essex
GULLIVER/GULLOFER Fifehead Magdalen Dorset
HORSCROFT Kent.
KING Sturminster Newton, Dorset. MONK Odiham Ham.
SCOTT Wrabness, Essex
WILKINS Stour Provost, Dorset.
WICKHAM All in North Essex.
WICKHAM Medway Towns, Kent from 1880
WICKHAM, Ipswich, Suffolk.

Online MaxD

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Re: Confused re records for Bdr. 72162 Arthur Jarman RFA
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 26 December 17 10:14 GMT (UK) »
The war diary and his POW records shed a little more light.  The 26th August 1914 was a particularly terrible day for the batteries of the brigade in the worst days of the retreat from Mons.  Almost all the officers and 36 NCOs and men of his battery (11 Bty) were killed, wounded or missing in what was in effect an artillery duel at Le Cateau in which the brigade came off much the worse.  Unsurprising perhaps that careful note taking about casualties was not top priority.

His POW record shows that the information gathered by the Red Cross records him "blessé et disparu le 26 Août" and has the note "died - all unknown" and "family informed". He is on a list of burial locations as "location unknown" dated 8 April 1915.

MaxD
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Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

Offline alison300

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Re: Confused re records for Bdr. 72162 Arthur Jarman RFA
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 27 December 17 13:31 GMT (UK) »
Thank you Jebber and MaxD - you've both helped enormously. 

Final question though: where did you view the diary?  Ancestry doesn't have it.  Does FindMyPast? :)
Wright (West Ham, Stratford, St Lukes, Cripplegate,
Widenstrom (Chicago and Minnesota)
Swain (Cripplegate, St Lukes)
Wolfe (St Giles in the Fields)
Willis (Gt. Leighs, Margaretting, Gt. Waltham, Ilford, Brentford)
Bryant (Bristol, Glos)
Searle
Keyworth (Yorkshire)

Online MaxD

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Re: Confused re records for Bdr. 72162 Arthur Jarman RFA
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 27 December 17 14:25 GMT (UK) »
Ancestry does have  the diary.  Search the France/Germany diaries for :
Regiment/Unit - Royal Horse Artillery and Royal Field Artillery
Division - 5th Division
Piece 1528/1-2 15 Brigade Royal Field Artillery

The diary is, perhaps understandably, a bit of a mess at the beginning.  After a number of disjointed sheets, the diary proper begins at image 106.  From the sketch map of the battery positions on the morning of 26 Aug 14 we can place them on the day he went missing to the south of the junction of the D643 and the D955 to the west of Le Cateau on the road to Reumont about where the old and new maps join on the link:
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=13&lat=50.1016&lon=3.5203&layers=101465140&b=1

MaxD
Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

Offline alison300

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Re: Confused re records for Bdr. 72162 Arthur Jarman RFA
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 27 December 17 18:43 GMT (UK) »
Thanks MaxD - I will take another look for it.
Wright (West Ham, Stratford, St Lukes, Cripplegate,
Widenstrom (Chicago and Minnesota)
Swain (Cripplegate, St Lukes)
Wolfe (St Giles in the Fields)
Willis (Gt. Leighs, Margaretting, Gt. Waltham, Ilford, Brentford)
Bryant (Bristol, Glos)
Searle
Keyworth (Yorkshire)