Author Topic: Madge Francis White - Hull - birth cert, father / grandfather mystery  (Read 2162 times)

Offline teach3r

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
  • It's always good to share!
    • View Profile
Madge Francis White - Hull - birth cert, father / grandfather mystery
« on: Thursday 28 December 17 14:45 GMT (UK) »
Hi everyone and thank you in advance for any help that can be given!

My great grandfather is George William Patterson (23/04/1898 (Hull) - 01/11/1970 (Hull)) for whom I have his birth, marriage and death certificates. 

His marriage certificate of 03/04/20 shows that he married Madge Francis White in the district of Patrington and that they were living together at 11 South Cliff Road, Withernsea. Her father on the certificate is William White, coastguard (deceased).

If I have the right person, I have her living with her grandparents in Sculcoates in 1901 (RG13/4489 Page 35) and in 1911 still with her grandparents at 11 South Cliff Road (i.e. where she was when she got married). On both census she is shown as born in Waxholme around 1887. Her grandfather is shown as born in Padstow, Cornwall.

In the 1939 register her date of birth is shown as 14/12/1886.  I have a birth certificate which I assumed was her as it is for Madge Frances White born on 14 December 1886 in Sandlemere, Waxholme but this is where it gets confusing!

On the birth cert the mother is shown as Emily Elizabeth White (a domestic servant).  There is no father on the certificate, however, as mentioned earlier a William White is down as her father on the marriage certificate to my great grandfather.

Firstly, do you think that I have the right birth cert (I think there is enough circumstantial evidence to support this)?
Secondly, do you think the person on the marriage cert is actually her grandfather rather than another William White?
Thirdly, what happened to Emily Elizabeth White?

Thank you for any clarity that may be given.

Regards,

Nic



Berkshire: Clarke, Croxford, Eustace
Bilston, Staffordshire: Dean
Devon: Blackmore, Matthews
Gwyddelwern, Betws GG, Denbighshire: Davies, Evans
Glamorgan: Dean, Matthews
Hull: Grant, Nicholson, Patterson, White
Newcastle: Patterson
Shafton, Yorkshire: Miles, Moulson,
Wiltshire: Emery

Offline avm228

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 24,827
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Madge Francis White - Hull - birth cert, father / grandfather mystery
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 28 December 17 14:52 GMT (UK) »
Yes I firmly believe you have the right birth certificate.

It is far from uncommon to find a false name given for a father on a marriage certificate for a person born out of wedlock - presumably so as to sound more respectable in a time where illegitimacy carried a stigma.

Sometimes the name is that of a grandfather or other maternal male relative.
Sometimes it includes elements of the natural father's name.
Sometimes it includes elements of a stepfather's name.
Sometimes it seems completely made up!
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline avm228

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 24,827
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Madge Francis White - Hull - birth cert, father / grandfather mystery
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 28 December 17 14:57 GMT (UK) »
In this case the maternal grandfather was William White who in 1891 was a station officer with the Coast Guard, so it seems a strong likelihood that he is the inspiration for the "father" named in the marriage certificate - and if he and his wife had a hand in her upbringing, perhaps it's natural that she used his details when she married.
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline avm228

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 24,827
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Madge Francis White - Hull - birth cert, father / grandfather mystery
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 28 December 17 14:59 GMT (UK) »
William's daughter Emily White was 7 b Hatherleigh, Devon according to the 1871 census: RG10/4810/38/2.

Birth reg: Emily Elizabeth White, mmn Lane, Jun qtr 1863 Okehampton.
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)


Offline avm228

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 24,827
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Madge Francis White - Hull - birth cert, father / grandfather mystery
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 28 December 17 15:04 GMT (UK) »
Emily E White, 27 b Hatherleigh Devon, was in service in South Cliffe, Withernsea in 1891.

RG12/3947/52A/13.
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline teach3r

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
  • It's always good to share!
    • View Profile
Re: Madge Francis White - Hull - birth cert, father / grandfather mystery
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 28 December 17 15:05 GMT (UK) »
Thank you avm,

When you say "William's" daughter, do you mean "granddaughter" or "daughter".

Your kind help is much appreciated.  Still trying to find the census record that you have mentioned.

Regards

Nic
Berkshire: Clarke, Croxford, Eustace
Bilston, Staffordshire: Dean
Devon: Blackmore, Matthews
Gwyddelwern, Betws GG, Denbighshire: Davies, Evans
Glamorgan: Dean, Matthews
Hull: Grant, Nicholson, Patterson, White
Newcastle: Patterson
Shafton, Yorkshire: Miles, Moulson,
Wiltshire: Emery

Offline avm228

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 24,827
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Madge Francis White - Hull - birth cert, father / grandfather mystery
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 28 December 17 15:11 GMT (UK) »
Emily was William's daughter. It's Madge who was his granddaughter.

Emily Elizabeth White married James William Wilson in Sculcoates, Dec qtr 1899.

She is with him in Sculcoates in 1901 as Emily E Wilson, 37 b Hatherleigh, Devon.

Ref is RG13/4494/7/6.
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline teach3r

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
  • It's always good to share!
    • View Profile
Re: Madge Francis White - Hull - birth cert, father / grandfather mystery
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 28 December 17 15:40 GMT (UK) »
avm - you are a superstar!

I am just trying to find the originals of all your kind research so that I can add to my tree.

Regards,

Nic
Berkshire: Clarke, Croxford, Eustace
Bilston, Staffordshire: Dean
Devon: Blackmore, Matthews
Gwyddelwern, Betws GG, Denbighshire: Davies, Evans
Glamorgan: Dean, Matthews
Hull: Grant, Nicholson, Patterson, White
Newcastle: Patterson
Shafton, Yorkshire: Miles, Moulson,
Wiltshire: Emery

Offline Bee

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,914
    • View Profile
Re: Madge Francis White - Hull - birth cert, father / grandfather mystery
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 28 December 17 16:05 GMT (UK) »
Emily was William's daughter. It's Madge who was his granddaughter.

Emily Elizabeth White married James William Wilson in Sculcoates, Dec qtr 1899.

She is with him in Sculcoates in 1901 as Emily E Wilson, 37 b Hatherleigh, Devon.

Ref is RG13/4494/7/6.

Just to add to what avm has found

According to yorkshirebmd, the marriage for Emily Elizabeth White & James William Wilson took place at St Philips church Bilton Grange, Hull.


Bee
Dinsdale, Ellis, Gee, Goldsmith,Green,Hawks,Holmes,  Lacey, Longhorn, Pickersgill, Quantrill,Tuthill, Tuttle & Walker,  in E & W Yorks, Lincs, Norfolk & Suffolk. Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk