Author Topic: Robert George Black and Eliza Black - Antrim/Belfast  (Read 869 times)

Offline jdchisim

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Robert George Black and Eliza Black - Antrim/Belfast
« on: Saturday 30 December 17 12:36 GMT (UK) »
Hello everyone,

Unfortunately in my family tree I have a few enigmas who you can't seem to find any useful information on, as with Mary Dornan who I posted about a few weeks ago, I was wondering if anyone had any information on a Robert George Black.

This is the information I have:
Going back, I have a Lily Black marries a Thomas Chisim in 1921. Father Robert George Black, driller, residence 22 Santiago Street.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1921/09214/5333220.pdf

On the Lennon Wylie Records
http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/alphanames1918ab.htm
RG Black, driller, 22 Santiago Street, 1918.

This is a Robert George Black, last residence 21 Santiago Street
https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialSearch.aspx?GraveSection=D1&GraveNumber=185&CemeteryName=City%20Cemetery%20-%20Glenalina%20Extension

Born circa 1875, dies 1961.
Also in this grave is a Rebecca Black, I have assumed, his second wife.

RG Black (driller), marries Rebecca Gregory 1914:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1914/09862/5581800.pdf

Father is Robert Black, labourer. RG Blacks age listed as 37, born circa 1877.
Rebecca Black is listed in the same grave plot as RG Black. Dies 1934 aged 41, born circa 1893. 22 Santiago Street.
https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6591.8180

Rebecca's birth 1893
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1893/02296/1861468.pdf
Father is Samuel Gregory. Matches marriage record father.

So we know that this is RG Black, more likely born circa 1875.

Robert Black, driller listed with first wife and Lily in the 1911 census. Born circa 1874.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Clifton/Mayfair_Street/184443/

Eliza Black herself is a bit of enigma. This is where it starts to become a bit unclear:

Robert George Black marries Elizabeth Black in 1895. Elizabeths father is William Black, Council (have no idea what that is). RG Black's father is Robert George Black, soldier.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1895/10523/5832947.pdf

After this it's become a bit of a nightmare. There are no names listed as Robert George Black which have a father Robert (or RG) Black. There are no Robert Blacks with father Robert Blacks who match his year of birth. I can't work out who his father was, or when he died. I know RG Black (jr) was born in Antrim, can't work out where? The name is so common, but when you look for a Robert Black, born to a Robert Black, the years don't really align and there's no way to know if any of the records for the years to either side are correct. I can't even seem to find any of Robert Blacks brothers or sisters? He was born in Antrim, but was his father a soldier from somewhere else? I really don't know. I have tried looking at military records and I found a Robert George Black who was born in Belfast but again the years don't match up and his birth in the census is not shown to be Belfast, but Co. Antrim, so assumed outside of Belfast.

With respect to Eliza Black his wife. I assume this is her:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1914/05305/4475572.pdf

It's really hard to know and I can't find a grave.

Does anyone have any record for these people in their trees or can point me in the right direction?

Many thanks.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, the absence of the family from the 1901 census or at least I cannot seem to find them? Also an unusual thing I have noticed is that Robert and Eliza repeatedly gave their children the middle name 'Marshall'. I don't know if that relates to the surname Marshall and is a clue or relates to a military position?
Ireland:
Antrim: Chisim (Chism/Chisholm), Ross, Black, Dornan, Bell, Gowdy (Goudy), Clawson (Classon), Lockhart (Locket), Rice, Muldoon, Montgomery, McKinley, Cochran, Armstrong, Stewart, Morris
Down: Blackwood
Derry: Blaney (Blayney), Creamer (Cramer/Creanor)
Fermanagh: Downey, Rice
Tyrone: Hamilton, Irwin

England:
Lindores

Wales:
Johns

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Offline chinapaddy

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Re: Robert George Black and Eliza Black - Antrim/Belfast
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 30 December 17 13:36 GMT (UK) »
   Eliza Jane Black
Record details
Name of deceased    Eliza Jane Black
Last place of residence    51 Lisburn Road 94 Fortingale St
Age   39 Years
Sex   
Date of death   26 April 1914
Date of burial   28 April 1914
Cemetery    City Cemetery - Public Ground
Grave section and number    
Burial Type   Earth Burial

https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=7627.29051
Corri, Holland,
Newman, Kiernan,
Lyons, Murphy

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Offline chinapaddy

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Re: Robert George Black and Eliza Black - Antrim/Belfast
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 30 December 17 14:03 GMT (UK) »
Quote
William Black, Council (have no idea what that is)
possibly a Councillor/Alderman in Belfast City Council.

This years Honours list:
Members of the Order of the British Empire
Robert George BLACK Northern Ireland District Chairman, Royal British Legion. For services to ex-Service Personnel and their Families. (Londonderry)

with the military background in the family possibly a connection?
Corri, Holland,
Newman, Kiernan,
Lyons, Murphy

Offline jdchisim

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Re: Robert George Black and Eliza Black - Antrim/Belfast
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 30 December 17 14:07 GMT (UK) »
Interesting.

Perhaps it is. I don't have any current connections to the county and as far as I can tell. Going forward most of the Blacks lived in Belfast.
Ireland:
Antrim: Chisim (Chism/Chisholm), Ross, Black, Dornan, Bell, Gowdy (Goudy), Clawson (Classon), Lockhart (Locket), Rice, Muldoon, Montgomery, McKinley, Cochran, Armstrong, Stewart, Morris
Down: Blackwood
Derry: Blaney (Blayney), Creamer (Cramer/Creanor)
Fermanagh: Downey, Rice
Tyrone: Hamilton, Irwin

England:
Lindores

Wales:
Johns

Offline gaffy

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Re: Robert George Black and Eliza Black - Antrim/Belfast
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 30 December 17 22:49 GMT (UK) »

... EDIT: I forgot to mention, the absence of the family from the 1901 census or at least I cannot seem to find them? ...


They were in Dalton-in-Furness in 1901, Robert G. and Eliza J. were shown as 28 and born in Ireland, children William and Lillie were with them.


Offline gaffy

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Re: Robert George Black and Eliza Black - Antrim/Belfast
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 31 December 17 01:59 GMT (UK) »
Turning to a possible ancestry for the Eliza Jane Black who married Robert George Black in 1895, just to recap that her father was recorded in the marriage record as William Black ('council' may simply mean that he worked for the council) and the witnesses were Andrew Black and Sarah Young.  Note the following chain of circumstances, particularly timings and recurrent themes, eg. names that resonate like Wilson and Young, and matching addresses:

1. A 48 year old married woman Eliza Black died at 29 Walton Street on 30 October 1892, the informant was her son Andrew Black
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1892/06021/4714375.pdf

2. A 52 year old widower William Black died at 29 Walton Street on 4 January 1897, the informant was his son Andrew Black of 9 Lebanon Street:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1897/05877/4666484.pdf

3. An Elizabeth Black was born at 29 Walton Street on 22 December 1897, parents given as Robert Black and Elizabeth Black (maiden surname) of that address:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1898/02098/1799442.pdf

4. Further to (3), there was no sign of an Elizabeth of that age in the Robert George & Eliza Jane Black household either in the 1901 England census (in Dalton-in-Furness) or in the 1911 Ireland census (in house 5 in Mayfair Street).  However, there is a death for an Elizabeth Black which is bang on age-wise, she died at 7 months of age on 21 July 1898, albeit at a different Belfast address to the above, but interestingly, the father was recorded as Robert George Black:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1898/05823/4648873.pdf

5. Further to (2), there was an Andrew Black in Lebanon Street in the 1901 census:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Clifton/Lebanon_Street/961995/

6. Just to focus in on the 4 year old daughter in the above 1901 Lebanon Street census return, she was born on 4 February 1897 at 9 Lebanon Street and was registered as Jeanie Wilson Black, daughter of Andrew Black and Elizabeth Young:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1897/02142/1813294.pdf

7. Andrew Black and Elizabeth Young were married in Belfast in 1889, the groom's father was recorded as William Black, labourer:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1889/10747/5918814.pdf

Joining the dots between all of the above pieces of information, points towards Eliza Jane having a brother Andrew and the two of them being the children of a couple called William and Elizabeth Black, more specifically William Black and Elizabeth Wilson,  for whom there is a birth registration for a daughter Eliza Jane Black on 20 October 1874 at 29 Walton Street:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1874/03129/2147369.pdf
 
A couple with those names also had a son Andrew Black in 1867 (registered in  Ballymena district, but father residing in Belfast):
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03488/2281913.pdf

Other children for those parents' names included Margaret in 1869 (registered in Ballymena district), William in 1871 (registered in Ballymena district), and David in 1877 (address: 29 Walton Street Belfast):
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1869/03387/2241660.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03313/2214227.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03014/2104397.pdf

I can't see a marriage for an Elizabeth Wilson to a William Black, however a speculative possibility is one for an Agnes Wilson who married William Black in Clifton Street Presbyterian Church Belfast on 9 July 1866, the address for both was 2 Fairfax Street and William was recorded as a blacksmith (same occupation as that stated in the earlier births mentioned above), the two fathers were recorded as James Black (labourer) and Andrew Wilson (bleacher).


Offline gaffy

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Re: Robert George Black and Eliza Black - Antrim/Belfast
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 31 December 17 11:03 GMT (UK) »
Turning to Robert George Black, the following is some very speculative stuff on a possible lead to his  background, the various bits and pieces might turn out to be co-incidental and not relevant at all (mostly common names, after all), but it might be useful to pursue further if just to eliminate them.  The hook for me was a 'Marshall' connection...
 
1. A Robert George Black enlisted at Armagh in the Royal Irish Fusiliers in December 1890 (he was already in the Royal Irish Rifles) and was discharged again in 1892, he was recorded as a single man, a labourer, born in Shankill parish Belfast, and as 18 years 10 months old.  The next of kin were given as his elder brother William and mother Mary Ann [no surname mentioned] of 93 Hornby Street Belfast.

2. The 1890 Belfast street directory on the Lennon Wylie website shows the following entry for Hornby Street: 93. Marshall, Wm., driller
http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/hijkcomplete1890.htm

3. A 5 month old John Marshall died on 5 November 1889 at 93 Hornby Street, his father recorded as William John Marshall of that address:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1889/06127/4749985.pdf

4. It seems that John above was one of twins, John and Lizzie, who were born to parents William John Marshall and Mary Ann Black on 16 May 1889, the other twin Lizzie died aged 9 in 1898:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1889/02477/1919560.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1898/05833/4651803.pdf

5. There was also a son Frederick John born to this couple in 1887 who died the same year:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1887/02552/1944200.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1887/06199/4773032.pdf

6. Someone called Mary Ann Marshall, wife of William John Marshall (a driller), died in December 1900 at 10 Harold Street with a reported age of 41:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1900/05747/4623017.pdf

7. Then there was a marriage weeks later on 4 February 1901 of a 44 year old widower called William John Marshall of Silvio Street to an Annie (Officer) McLaren of 10 Harold Street, William John was described as a driller and his father was recorded as a labourer with the same full name, the couple appeared in Silvio Street a few weeks later in the 1901 census:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1901/10296/5747831.pdf
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Shankhill/Silvio/949710/

8. A William John Marshall of Silvio Street died the following year (1902):
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1902/05705/4609236.pdf

9. I can't readily see a marriage of Mary Ann Black to William John Marshall, but there was a widow Margaret Black who married a William John Marshall in 1881, in the marriage record, Margaret was described as 'Black alias Black', daughter of William Black a soldier - BTW, in the marriage registered directly below theirs, the couple were also witnesses on the same day in the same church to a Samuel Stewart (who was a witness to their marriage):
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1881/11015/8027554.pdf

So how, if at all, does the Robert George Black at (1) above, born in the early 1870s, fit into this story? Was the widow Margaret Black who married William John Marshall in 1881 the same person as Mary Ann Black mentioned (above) later and was this Robert George's mother?  I can't yet see a previous marriage for the widow Margaret Black of the 1881 marriage, let alone one to a soldier called Robert Black (ie. which would satisfy the groom's father's details in the 1895 marriage of Robert George Black to Elizabeth Black mentioned in the original post). There was a couple called Robert Black and Margaret Ewart who got married in 1870 and had a number of children (including a son William, but no son Robert that I can see) - while Robert, husband of Margaret Ewart, did indeed die just some months before Margaret 'Black alias Black' married William John Marshall in 1881, Margaret's father in the 1870 marriage was given as Francis Ewart, which is far removed from the given father 'William Black' in the 1881 marriage.  And of course, for this to be the same person who died as Mary Ann Marshall in 1900, her maiden surname should also be Black to be consistent with the maiden surname shown in the birth registrations at (4) and (5) above, not Ewart. So not hanging together as a story well at all.

Could Robert George Black have been 'adopted' by William John Marshall? Could he even have been illegitimate?  Or is all of this just a red herring and unconnected to the OP's Robert George Black? Maybe someone else with fresh eyes coming to this might see something more quickly to rule this in or out.


Offline jdchisim

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Re: Robert George Black and Eliza Black - Antrim/Belfast
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 31 December 17 17:38 GMT (UK) »
Gaffy, thank you so much for that reply.

I had previously seen the Eliza Jane link and I had a suspicion about it but you have now confirmed it! Thank you so much for that.

That Robert George Black stuff is very interesting and I never would have seen that connection at all but I think you are definitely onto something. Reading the information that you posted I remembered something.

The Lily Marshall Black born to Robert Black and Eliza Jane Black was born at 11 Harold Street
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1899/02043/1782454.pdf

on 13th April 1899. Mary Ann Marshall would then have been their neighbour at residence 10 Harold Street at her death in 1900 so there is 100% definitely a connection there.

Looking at the census records it states that William John Marshall was born in Armagh. This is a bit of a jump but, Robert George Black mentioned signed on in Armagh. Given the fact that Mary's father was also a soldier it is entirely possible that Robert George Black (soldier and RG Black who we are investigating foremost, father) was an associate of Mary's father and in someway is connected to being the wife of Mary Ann Black who was then widowed.

I also note that there's other links with the streets between William John Marshall and RG Black and Eliza Black, albeit in some cases a bit more distant.

William Marshall Black (son of RG) was born in 1896 at 84 Hillview Street.
Lizzie Marshall was born 1889 at 28 Hillview Street.
Lily Black (as already mentioned) born at 11 Harold Street in 1899.
Elizabeth Marshall born at 5 Harold Street in 1898
Frederick John Marshall born at 2 Harold Street in 1887
Frederick John Marshall dies at 13 Lebanon Street in 1887
Sarah Black born at 16 Lebanon Street 1904
Jeanie Black born at 9 Lebanon Street 1909

Then given the driller profession link with RG Blacks I think there may be something as well.

Very interesting and useful, thanks again Gaffy.

Ireland:
Antrim: Chisim (Chism/Chisholm), Ross, Black, Dornan, Bell, Gowdy (Goudy), Clawson (Classon), Lockhart (Locket), Rice, Muldoon, Montgomery, McKinley, Cochran, Armstrong, Stewart, Morris
Down: Blackwood
Derry: Blaney (Blayney), Creamer (Cramer/Creanor)
Fermanagh: Downey, Rice
Tyrone: Hamilton, Irwin

England:
Lindores

Wales:
Johns

Offline gaffy

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Re: Robert George Black and Eliza Black - Antrim/Belfast
« Reply #8 on: Monday 01 January 18 09:17 GMT (UK) »

... I also note that there's other links with the streets between William John Marshall and RG Black and Eliza Black, albeit in some cases a bit more distant ...


I thought that as well, the same streets and in some cases actual street numbers recur to a highly 'coincidental' degree.  Take this individual 'Harold Street' example spanning only 3 years.

Elizabeth Marshall, the daughter of William John Marshall and Mary Ann Black, died at 5 Harold Street in 1898.  The Belfast street directory for 1899 on the PRONI website corroborates that they lived there with the following entry for Harold Street: 5 Marshall, W. J., Driller. Then the address changed occupancy.  As you say, Lily Marshall Black, the daughter of Robert George Black and Eliza Jane Black, was born at the family address of 11 Harold Street in April 1899. The Belfast street directory for 1900 on the PRONI website then shows the following for Harold Street: 10 Marshall, W. J., Driller.  Which is where Mary Ann Marshall died in 1900, as mentioned above.  So these 2 sets of folk (1. William John Marshall + Mary Ann Black and 2. Robert George Black + Eliza Jane Black) are living contemporaneously in a street of only 12 houses...

Fast forward a few years and a story about a shipyard fatality in a Belfast newspaper of January 1908  made the following brief mention: 'Robert Black, 5 Harold Street, a driller, gave similar evidence'. Was this your Robert Black? A common enough name, but very few drillers with it (eg. only one in the 1911 Ireland census).  The Belfast street directory for 1908 on the Lennon Wylie website showed that address as vacant and indeed the only driller called Robert Black in that year was shown living at 53 Hillview Street (as you say, another street name that recurs).

There's an old saying that if you think you've got mice, then you've got mice - the sheer coincidence of streets and addresses is part of the reason for me believing that there is something of substance in this whole story.  All the more frustrating then, that there isn't yet anything more conclusive in the way of a marriage for 'Mary Ann' Black or a birth for Robert.