Author Topic: Robert George Black and Eliza Black - Antrim/Belfast  (Read 3588 times)

Offline gaffy

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Re: Robert George Black and Eliza Black - Antrim/Belfast
« Reply #9 on: Monday 01 January 18 11:46 GMT (UK) »

... There was a couple called Robert Black and Margaret Ewart who got married in 1870 and had a number of children (including a son William, but no son Robert that I can see) - while Robert, husband of Margaret Ewart, did indeed die just some months before Margaret 'Black alias Black' married William John Marshall in 1881, Margaret's father in the 1870 marriage was given as Francis Ewart, which is far removed from the given father 'William Black' in the 1881 marriage ... 


Robert Black and Margaret Ewart can be disregarded, I've tracked Margaret and she is definitely not the same person as the Margaret Black who married William John Marshall in 1881 or the Mary Ann Black with whom William John Marshall had several children in the late 1880s.  It was never a strong possibility anyway, but out it goes for definite.


Offline jdchisim

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Re: Robert George Black and Eliza Black - Antrim/Belfast
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 02 January 18 22:07 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for doing that gaffy.

I was not aware of that 1908 news story so perhaps it may be linked. Though I don't have any other information which could confirm this.

What is of interest and may be a potential lead which I need to look into is, the remarriage of WJ Marshall and his appearance in the census. Most of the children are stated to be step children to WJ head of household and take the name McLaren from his wife's widower. However, there is one other child, his son William Marshall who (I don't have the record in front of me and I'm on my phone but I believe this to be correct) who was 19 years old and born in Scotland. If he was married to Mary Black then it is all too possible that this is his child with her. In which case, the Scottish records for birth and marriage may be worth pursuing.

Edit: I would say that this is William James Marshall in 1911. Louisa Street is just around the corner from the other streets mentioned. Which themselves are typically only one street apart.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Clifton/Louisa_Street/184401/

This puts his birth as Govan which is in Glasgow.

The search continues.
Ireland:
Antrim - Chism, Bell, McKinley, Armstrong, Johnson, Allen
Ballymena - Ross, Stewart, Black, Wilson, McCarville
Belfast - Black, Gunion, Dornan, Gowdy, Rice, Muldoon, Montgomery
Carnmoney - Clawson
Dungannon - Creamer
Derrylin - Rice, Grieves, Breen, McManus, Lang
Lisnaskea - Downey
Magherafelt - Creamer, Blaney
Monaghan - Downey, Young
Newtownards - Blackwood, Morris
Newtownstewart - Hamilton, Irwin
Templepatrick - Lockhart, Cochran

Wales:
Llantrisant - John, Griffith, David

Offline jdchisim

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Re: Robert George Black and Eliza Black - Antrim/Belfast
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 26 July 18 20:45 BST (UK) »
I've been able to get a bit more concrete information on this Robert George Black.

I posted on the force war records forum asking about the military background for more information.

And one of the users posted this:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1874/03164/2160811.pdf

Mary Ann Blick has an illegitimate child of Robet George born 9th February 1874. My records show him dying aged 86 on 2nd February 1961. So this matches perfectly.

On the Marshall census showing William John Marshall remarried. He has a son William James Marshall.

I was able to locate him in Scotland. He was born in 1883 to William John Marshall and Mary Ann Black in Govan, Glasgow. It also very helpfully has their marriage date: October 3rd 1880 in Belfast. I just need to locate that record and I am in business!
Ireland:
Antrim - Chism, Bell, McKinley, Armstrong, Johnson, Allen
Ballymena - Ross, Stewart, Black, Wilson, McCarville
Belfast - Black, Gunion, Dornan, Gowdy, Rice, Muldoon, Montgomery
Carnmoney - Clawson
Dungannon - Creamer
Derrylin - Rice, Grieves, Breen, McManus, Lang
Lisnaskea - Downey
Magherafelt - Creamer, Blaney
Monaghan - Downey, Young
Newtownards - Blackwood, Morris
Newtownstewart - Hamilton, Irwin
Templepatrick - Lockhart, Cochran

Wales:
Llantrisant - John, Griffith, David

Online Elwyn Soutter

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Re: Robert George Black and Eliza Black - Antrim/Belfast
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 26 July 18 21:08 BST (UK) »

I was able to locate him in Scotland. He was born in 1883 to William John Marshall and Mary Ann Black in Govan, Glasgow. It also very helpfully has their marriage date: October 3rd 1880 in Belfast. I just need to locate that record and I am in business!

Can’t see any marriage in Belfast between William Marshall and Mary Black on 3.10.1880. However I do see one for William John Marshall and Margaret Black alias Black on 10.10.1881. (She was a widow, and evidently her maiden name was also Black).

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1881/11015/8027554.pdf
Elwyn


Offline jdchisim

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Re: Robert George Black and Eliza Black - Antrim/Belfast
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 26 July 18 21:27 BST (UK) »
Yes, Gaffy had mentioned it above.

I have done searches on irishgenealogy.ie, rootsireland and GRONI and cannot find any marriages for that date. It must be the 1881 marriage.
Ireland:
Antrim - Chism, Bell, McKinley, Armstrong, Johnson, Allen
Ballymena - Ross, Stewart, Black, Wilson, McCarville
Belfast - Black, Gunion, Dornan, Gowdy, Rice, Muldoon, Montgomery
Carnmoney - Clawson
Dungannon - Creamer
Derrylin - Rice, Grieves, Breen, McManus, Lang
Lisnaskea - Downey
Magherafelt - Creamer, Blaney
Monaghan - Downey, Young
Newtownards - Blackwood, Morris
Newtownstewart - Hamilton, Irwin
Templepatrick - Lockhart, Cochran

Wales:
Llantrisant - John, Griffith, David

Offline jdchisim

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Re: Robert George Black and Eliza Black - Antrim/Belfast
« Reply #14 on: Monday 25 March 19 20:45 GMT (UK) »
Random bump here - in case it becomes useful for anyone else.

Re. Gaffys post here:
I can't see a marriage for an Elizabeth Wilson to a William Black, however a speculative possibility is one for an Agnes Wilson who married William Black in Clifton Street Presbyterian Church Belfast on 9 July 1866, the address for both was 2 Fairfax Street and William was recorded as a blacksmith (same occupation as that stated in the earlier births mentioned above), the two fathers were recorded as James Black (labourer) and Andrew Wilson (bleacher).

I have went back to William and Elizabeth after stopping the search for a while and have acquired the afforementioned marriage.

I am perhaps thinking there may have been an error in the government copy of the marriage. As Gaffy has mentioned the professions match as William as Blacksmith. Also William can't write comparing this record match to the birth of their first child where William the father is living in Belfast, and left his mark rather than sign.

William and Elizabeths first child was called Andrew, the name of the Wilson father. I also note the location of the birth of Andrew as Kinbally, Parish of Skerry. This is just outside Broughshane. A quick check of Griffiths Valuation shows one Wilson family living in Kinbally townland, circa 1862 time of Antrim valuation and that is, Andrew Wilson.

I must check the records for Clifton Street Presbyterian to see if there is another copy of the marriage on there. Sometimes the copies seem to differ. There's too much that adds up here for it not to be them.

It is slightly odd that the name has changed. Eliza/Elizabeth and Agnes do not relate to eachother.
Ireland:
Antrim - Chism, Bell, McKinley, Armstrong, Johnson, Allen
Ballymena - Ross, Stewart, Black, Wilson, McCarville
Belfast - Black, Gunion, Dornan, Gowdy, Rice, Muldoon, Montgomery
Carnmoney - Clawson
Dungannon - Creamer
Derrylin - Rice, Grieves, Breen, McManus, Lang
Lisnaskea - Downey
Magherafelt - Creamer, Blaney
Monaghan - Downey, Young
Newtownards - Blackwood, Morris
Newtownstewart - Hamilton, Irwin
Templepatrick - Lockhart, Cochran

Wales:
Llantrisant - John, Griffith, David

Offline jdchisim

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Re: Robert George Black and Eliza Black - Antrim/Belfast
« Reply #15 on: Friday 07 May 21 13:51 BST (UK) »
Sorry for bumping this from the depths but I have a small query - and potentially vital information staring me in the face.

I had got the 1939 record for Robert George Black which includes his birth date and matches that of the birth date of the Robert George Blick born in 1874 to Mary Ann Blick.

A quick query regarding Scottish records. I am not really familiar with them and their structuring, though they appear to be a lot more detailed than Irish records.

In the birth for William James Marshall on September Fifteenth 1883, it states the following:

William-John Marshall
Shipyard Labourer
Mary Ann Marshall
Previously Black
M.S. Irwin? - it reads to me as Irwin but the r is a bit unusual.
1880 October 3rd Belfast, Ireland

I don't know how I missed this but would this mean that Black was the name from a previous marriage and her maiden name was Irwin?

If so, it would mean I've been looking all this time for a Mary Black, instead of Mary Irwin. Would have to check and see if I can find the marriage of a Mary Irwin to a Robert Black in that case. Also not sure what this necessarily means, no father is listed on the birth record for Robert George Black in 1874 and she is recorded as Black. It's a bit hard to know what to believe!
Ireland:
Antrim - Chism, Bell, McKinley, Armstrong, Johnson, Allen
Ballymena - Ross, Stewart, Black, Wilson, McCarville
Belfast - Black, Gunion, Dornan, Gowdy, Rice, Muldoon, Montgomery
Carnmoney - Clawson
Dungannon - Creamer
Derrylin - Rice, Grieves, Breen, McManus, Lang
Lisnaskea - Downey
Magherafelt - Creamer, Blaney
Monaghan - Downey, Young
Newtownards - Blackwood, Morris
Newtownstewart - Hamilton, Irwin
Templepatrick - Lockhart, Cochran

Wales:
Llantrisant - John, Griffith, David

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Robert George Black and Eliza Black - Antrim/Belfast
« Reply #16 on: Friday 07 May 21 15:03 BST (UK) »
Quote
William-John Marshall
Shipyard Labourer
Mary Ann Marshall
Previously Black
M.S. Irwin? - it reads to me as Irwin but the r is a bit unusual.
1880 October 3rd Belfast, Ireland

Marriage of Margaret Black alias Black, widow, father William Black soldier, to William John Marshall on 10 Oct.1881 Belfast-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1881/11015/8027554.pdf
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline jdchisim

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Re: Robert George Black and Eliza Black - Antrim/Belfast
« Reply #17 on: Friday 07 May 21 15:53 BST (UK) »
Thanks for this.

I had previously seen this record but I am still unsure if it is correct.

My question may be better suited on the Scottish forums but it is related to this thread. My question is really, is ms her maiden name? I am not sure, as I don't deal with Scottish records and in the case, she may have re-married from Black to Marshall.

I don't know how to interpret what is written - is 'previously' normally used when a woman remarried? It's unclear to me if Mary was ever actually married to a Black as Robert seems to be illegitimate.
Ireland:
Antrim - Chism, Bell, McKinley, Armstrong, Johnson, Allen
Ballymena - Ross, Stewart, Black, Wilson, McCarville
Belfast - Black, Gunion, Dornan, Gowdy, Rice, Muldoon, Montgomery
Carnmoney - Clawson
Dungannon - Creamer
Derrylin - Rice, Grieves, Breen, McManus, Lang
Lisnaskea - Downey
Magherafelt - Creamer, Blaney
Monaghan - Downey, Young
Newtownards - Blackwood, Morris
Newtownstewart - Hamilton, Irwin
Templepatrick - Lockhart, Cochran

Wales:
Llantrisant - John, Griffith, David