Author Topic: Can anyone help with identifying the coat of arms/family in the attachment?  (Read 1456 times)

Offline KGarrad

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Re: Can anyone help with identifying the coat of arms/family in the attachment?
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 02 January 18 16:50 GMT (UK) »
Another point!
There is no such thing as a "Family" crest, or coat-of-arms!
Arms were granted to a named individual and, in England at least, were passed down through the male line.

The helmet isn't open, or barred, so this isn't nobility :-\
May be a clan chief's insignia, though?

The general rule for helmets (as part of the crest) is:

gold helmet with bars for the royal family;
silver helmet with gold bars for peers;
steel helmet with gold bars for the non-peerage Scottish feudal baron;
open steel helmet shown affronté for knights and baronets;
steel tournament helm for Scottish clan chiefs;
closed steel helmet for esquires and gentlemen.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

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Offline John915

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Re: Can anyone help with identifying the coat of arms/family in the attachment?
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 02 January 18 20:40 GMT (UK) »
Good evening,

There were different systems of "hatching" in use, and the horizontal lines could also mean Or (gold/yellow) or Gules

I have to disagree KG
Spotted = or/gold
Vertical =gules/red
Horizontal = azure/blue
Diagonal l to r = vert/green
        "        r to l = purpure/purple

The crescent is usually used to denote a second son but can also mean "honoured by royalty"
The inverted chevron means something important has been achieved.

I believe there is also a meaning for the helm facing right instead of left, will look that up.

John915
Stephens, Fuller, Tedham, Bennett, Ransome (Sussex)
Rider (Fulham)
Stephens (Somerset)
Kentfield (Essex)

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Offline KGarrad

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Re: Can anyone help with identifying the coat of arms/family in the attachment?
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 02 January 18 21:02 GMT (UK) »
Good evening,

There were different systems of "hatching" in use, and the horizontal lines could also mean Or (gold/yellow) or Gules

I have to disagree KG
Spotted = or/gold
Vertical =gules/red
Horizontal = azure/blue
Diagonal l to r = vert/green
        "        r to l = purpure/purple

The crescent is usually used to denote a second son but can also mean "honoured by royalty"
The inverted chevron means something important has been achieved.

I believe there is also a meaning for the helm facing right instead of left, will look that up.

John915

Gold/yellow/or is usually spotted, I grant you, but Franquart (1623) used horizontal lines in his system.
Likewise Red/gules is usually vertical lines, but can also be  horizontal lines: Butkens (1626), Caramuel (1636), Lobkowitz (1639-1642) and Gelenius (1645).
Blue is usually horizontal lines, but can also be spots (Franquart), diagonal lines (Butkens, de Rouck and Gelenius), or vertical lines (Caramuel and Lobkowitz).

If you read the wikipedia article I mentioned, it will explain in greater detail.

The crescent is indeed used as a cadency mark - but only singly, and not in pairs.

Chevrons are normally shown point upwards.
I have never seen an inverted chevron (i.e. point downwards) in a coat-of-arms.
It allegedly resembles roof rafters.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline John915

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Re: Can anyone help with identifying the coat of arms/family in the attachment?
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 02 January 18 21:46 GMT (UK) »
Good evening,

I am unable to see your link KG, it gives me a page with no info on it just some headings.

But I believe all the names you quoted are european systems which would be uncompatible with one another. If this coat of arms is english then they would give you the wrong colours when painted.

I suddenly realised that the helm faces sinister because it is on a signet ring. So when pressed into the wax would give the c of a correctly with helm facing dexter.

John915
Stephens, Fuller, Tedham, Bennett, Ransome (Sussex)
Rider (Fulham)
Stephens (Somerset)
Kentfield (Essex)

Offline KGarrad

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Re: Can anyone help with identifying the coat of arms/family in the attachment?
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 02 January 18 22:30 GMT (UK) »
Quoting from that wikipedia page:
Hatchings are distinctive and systematic patterns of lines and dots used for designating heraldic tinctures or other colours on uncoloured surfaces, such as woodcuts or engravings, seals and coins. Several systems of hatchings were developed during the Renaissance as an alternative to tricking, the earlier method of indicating heraldic tinctures by use of written abbreviations. The present day hatching system was developed during the 1630s by Silvester Petra Sancta and Marcus Vulson de la Colombière. Some earlier hatching methods were also developed, but did not come into wide use.

Most known hatching systems developed in the Low Countries, as that was where copper-plate engraving was mainly carried out.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline Skoosh

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Re: Can anyone help with identifying the coat of arms/family in the attachment?
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 03 January 18 11:05 GMT (UK) »
Well done KG, interesting stuff. Crescents were used in Scotland by the Seton's for example,

www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/seton.html

Skoosh.

Offline KGarrad

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Re: Can anyone help with identifying the coat of arms/family in the attachment?
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 03 January 18 11:31 GMT (UK) »
Thanks, Skoosh ;D

From that document:

Pasone of Gumbo: Azure, two crescents Argent in chief and a mullet Or in base
Kirkaldie of Grange: Gules, two crescents in chief and a mullet in base all Or
and
<no name>: Sable, a chevron between two crescents in chief and a mullet in base all Argent (SN135)
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline ReadyDale

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Re: Can anyone help with identifying the coat of arms/family in the attachment?
« Reply #16 on: Wednesday 03 January 18 11:52 GMT (UK) »
A couple of thoughts on the thread...

Is there any chance they may not be crescents, but horseshoes?

Secondly, as the hatching used for colours has changed over time, is it worth checking if there is any form of marking (hallmark?) on the ring to indicate age?

Offline GRSt

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Re: Can anyone help with identifying the coat of arms/family in the attachment?
« Reply #17 on: Thursday 04 January 18 07:32 GMT (UK) »
Better picture of ring and only marking inside ring