Author Topic: Unable to find birth / Wentzell Marriage Registration's  (Read 1279 times)

Offline Brickwall Demolisher

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Unable to find birth / Wentzell Marriage Registration's
« on: Monday 01 January 18 22:19 GMT (UK) »
Hi
 Hoping someone can help with our family's brickwall that has been confusing the family's of in both England and the U.S.A. The brickwall concerns the birth registration of my Great Grandfather's brother. HENRY ( HARRY ) WENTZELL b 1854 ?. We have him on the census's of 1861, 1871, 1881. He then left his family in ENGLAND, ( Newington, Walworth, Southwark area ) and started a new family in America. Both he and my Great Grandfather, ALFRED WENTZELL b 1856 were born in the Wirral and Liverpool area's. Their Mother spent / lived her life otherwise always in the Walworth, Southwark area of London....... I / We have found birth certificate for ALFRED, but not HENRY ( HARRY ).
      1854 & 1856, their birth years being in between the 1851 / 1861 Census's,.....records wise,..... seems to be the only time their Mother was ever away from the Walworth area.
  The birth certificate of ALFRED, and also word of mouth passed down, shows name of father of ALFRED as a JAMES WENTZELL. We have two JAMES WENTZELL,s in the family one born 1816, the other born 1839, father & son.
 We have also never found a marriage certificate for a JAMES WENTZELL & their Mother CHARLOTTE SADLER b 1836.
  1861 census has only Mother & 2 boys
  1871 census has Mother/2 boys & a ALBERT WENTZELL b1841 Head of Household.
  ALBERT WENTZELL is JAMES WENTZELL b 1839 Brother
  ALBERT WENTZELL (Stepfather/Stepbrother to the boys ????) Marries CHARLOTTE Sept Qtr 1871.
  CHARLOTTE dies Sept Qtr 1882.
  Our own sumise is the the marriage was a marriage of convenience for the WENTZELL name only.
  ALBERT WENTZELL is a PAUPER on 1891,1901, and 1911 Census's and dies a PAUPER in 1916.
  JAMES WENTZELL b 1816 dies Croydon, 1863
  JAMES WENTZELL b 1841 has approx. 20 year army career beginning November 1857 ( INDIA )

    Any help / info greatly appreciated,  Best Regards J

 
Maycock LAMBETH 1700-1960's
Burcham NORFOLK ??/LAMBETH 1700 - 1960's
Wentzell CRIPPLEGATE/SOUTHWARK 1700-1960's
Sadler CAMBERWELL / LEWISHAM 1700 - 1960's
Elliott WALWORTH / 1700 -1960's
Lepine FRANCE/KENT/WALWORTH/1550's-1950's
Barnes DORSET / WALWORTH

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Online CaroleW

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Re: UNABLE TO FIND BIRTH / MARRIAGE REGISTRATION 's
« Reply #1 on: Monday 01 January 18 22:37 GMT (UK) »
Failure to register a birth only became a fineable offence in 1874.  Many births prior to that date went unregistered.   There was a small charge for registering a birth - a few old pence.   However - that was a lot of money in those days so many parents chose to put food on the table rather than buy a "piece of paper".

Within my own FH I have some births registered and some not - all within the same family
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Online CaroleW

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Re: Unable to find birth / Marriage Registration's
« Reply #2 on: Monday 01 January 18 22:44 GMT (UK) »
Quote
HENRY ( HARRY ) WENTZELL b 1854

In 1861 - Harry is 5 so born 1855/56 Liverpool
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Offline tazzie

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Re: Unable to find birth / Marriage Registration's
« Reply #3 on: Monday 01 January 18 22:56 GMT (UK) »
There is also an entry in 1859 recording the reading of banns between Albert Wentzell and Charlotte Sadler November 27 December 4 & December 11 at All Saints Poplar.

Living in same street according to marriage register in 1871 Charlotte as a spinster.
James could well be the father but debunked to the military and his brother stepped in.

I have a similar in my family brother steps in and they marry quietly when the children are older.

Tazzie
Liscoe -all
Green/Simpson/Underwood-Beds
Walker/Foulkes/Fookes/Fooks/Hedges/Lamborne-Bucks.
Stanton/Pattrick/Cooper/Fitzjohn/Holland/Spalding-London
 Rewallin/Underwood -Devon
 Casbolt-London/Cambridge
 Favell/Favel - Lincs-Beds

 This information is Crown Copyright from
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Online chempat

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Re: Unable to find birth / Marriage Registration's
« Reply #4 on: Monday 01 January 18 23:23 GMT (UK) »
A tree on Ancestry has his birth as October 25th 1854 in Liverpool as Harry James Wentzell Saddler

Online avm228

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Re: Unable to find birth / Marriage Registrations
« Reply #5 on: Monday 01 January 18 23:49 GMT (UK) »
A tree on Ancestry has his birth as October 25th 1854 in Liverpool as Harry James Wentzell Saddler

The source relied on for this birthdate appears to be his Idaho death registration.
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Online Annette7

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Re: Unable to find birth / Marriage Registration's
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 02 January 18 02:09 GMT (UK) »
I notice from trees on Ancestry that none seemed to show the Wentzell family on 1841 Census.   By this time James and wife Maria Roberts had 2 children:

James Thomas - registered as Wentzel in Dec.1837 St. Luke,Middx.
Albert Gottlieb Wentzell - registered Sept.1939 Shoreditch

In 1841 James 25, Engineer, is with son James 3 in Cripplegate, Middlesex living with his parents John and Hannah - transcribed on Ancestry as 'Wensill'.

Wife, Maria 25, is with the other son Albert 2 in her birthplace of Cardiff, Wales and transcribed as 'Mentzel'.

Annette
Scopes (One-Name Study - Worldwide)
Suffolk - Grist, Knights, Bullenthorpe, Watcham
Scotland - Spence, Horne, Cowan, Moffat
London -  Monk

Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.   Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.   Just walk beside me and be my friend.

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline stanmapstone

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Re: UNABLE TO FIND BIRTH / MARRIAGE REGISTRATION 's
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 02 January 18 09:12 GMT (UK) »
There was a small charge for registering a birth - a few old pence.   However - that was a lot of money in those days so many parents chose to put food on the table rather than buy a "piece of paper".


There was never a charge for registering a birth, only for the certificate. The only time there was a financial penalty was if the birth was registered after 42 days in the 1836 act. Section 25 of the 1836 Act  for registering Births, Deaths, and Marriages in England fixed the fee for  a certified copy of an entry of a birth, marriage or death at 2s. 6d.

Under the 1836 Act If the birth was not registered within forty-two days there was a fee of two Shillings and Sixpence entitlement for the Superintendent Registrar, and five shillings for the registrar, Section XXII. There  was a penalty for non-registration in the 1874 Act, but not for late registration. So between 1837 and 1874  there was a financial incentive to make sure  the birth was registered within forty two days, either by the registrar or another responsible person.

The first Statistician of the GRO  Dr. William Farr (18071883) estimated a 5% non-registration rate for births 1837-76, declining from  6.9% in 1841-50 to 1.8% in 1861-70.


Stan
Mapstone, Mapston.
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Online jim1

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Re: Unable to find birth / Marriage Registration's
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 02 January 18 11:47 GMT (UK) »
It's quite possible he's registered under his mother's name as has been alluded to earlier.
If unmarried the mother couldn't name the father or give the father's surname to the child without his permission.
It may also be that James Wentzell wasn't the father but Harry was given his name on the census.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/