Author Topic: Unable to find birth / Wentzell Marriage Registration's  (Read 1333 times)

Offline stanmapstone

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Re: Unable to find birth / Marriage Registration's
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 02 January 18 12:04 GMT (UK) »


It's quite possible he's registered under his mother's name as has been alluded to earlier.
If unmarried the mother couldn't name the father or give the father's surname to the child without his permission.

Not so, between 1837 and 1874 if the mother informed a registrar of an illegitimate child's birth and also stated a father's name, the registrar could record him as the father, although he may not have actually been the father.
This applied until The Registration Act of 1874 which stated:
"The putative father of an illegitimate child cannot be required as father to give information respecting the birth. The name, surname and occupation of the putative father of an illegitimate child must not be entered except at the joint request of the father and mother; in which case both the father and mother must sign the entry as informants"
The Act came into force on 1st January 1875

Stan
Mapstone, Mapston.
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Offline Brickwall Demolisher

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Re: Unable to find birth / Marriage Registration's
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 02 January 18 15:59 GMT (UK) »
Well, Thank you everyone for you taking the time to answer my enquiry. Apologies to everyone if I do not answer you all individually. I have only recently got back into the F / H after a six year break because of family illness and with myself suffering two strokes within the last three years. Family history research to some people may not seem to be the best therapy, but it certainly helps you to find out if you still have what's needed for it. As I've found with F / H you need mainly patience by the bucket load and more,..... also when you find that you have made error's, accepting them and find it in yourselves in getting back on the right track. I find that you cannot check the records enough to get / find the right result.  We all individually find our own specific favoured sites for obtaining our ancestor's records but just bear in mind, I think what hinders us most when starting is mistranscription / missspelling of names, i.e ELLIOTT name for instance, one with one L and two T,s / also one T ..., two T's with one or two L's. Then we have the common names of the likes for JONES / DAVIES in WALES.  Best known in their local areas as JONES the fish, or JONES the butcher but when you have unfortunately a collection of these names to contend with in your family, unless you have yourself something passed down in the family it can be really hard to get started. Then other things that you have to decide on is whether / who you inform of your findings of a wrong doer in your history because they tried to cover up and forget, move on, hoping that over time, the past will get forgotten, but because of what you have decided on doing your bringing it all back. You personally have to adjust as to what you find. There are the moments of finding that piece of record in your family history which is uplifting, and has given you pleasure in finding what you found and just pushes you on to getting back further evermore. With me it has / is becoming a bit of a obsession.
  I only found / registered with Rootsweb  just before Christmas, and cannot praise all of you on the site highly enough, your time and knowledge freely given, it's just unbelieveable.
  On finding a new name, in my history, I came across on this site, one person who was doing a One Name Study into the name that I had found. On supplying him with the info. that I had, he has quickly now taken be into about the mid 1500's with the knowledge that he has.   Just unbelieveable.
  On another posting I have put on info regarding a Brickwall Syndrome that I have hit upon in my family, you people again should all congratulate yourselves, your response to it has amazed me, all of you. Those who gladly comment with all sorts of information. Information that comes from the board that will also be helpful for other's within their research.
  From this enquiry came a result of findings that pulled down a semi brickwall scenario of the 1841 census resulting in the family being split. I had one half of the family in London, Father and one son, but had not been able to find the wife and another son,  low and behold up comes the answer from you beautiful, helpful people again. Two posts, and two results what more could one ask for, Thank you all again for you hard work, much appreciated
Best Regards, HAPPY NEW YEAR to you all, J


Maycock LAMBETH 1700-1960's
Burcham NORFOLK ??/LAMBETH 1700 - 1960's
Wentzell CRIPPLEGATE/SOUTHWARK 1700-1960's
Sadler CAMBERWELL / LEWISHAM 1700 - 1960's
Elliott WALWORTH / 1700 -1960's
Lepine FRANCE/KENT/WALWORTH/1550's-1950's
Barnes DORSET / WALWORTH

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Offline Brickwall Demolisher

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THANKS EVERYONE.
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 03 January 18 05:34 GMT (UK) »
Hi
 Just a thank you for everyone regarding my request on my WENTZELL,s. Appreciate everyone's curiosity. What a good outcome. It always helps I believe to get other eye's looking at your findings. -  quite often they find avenue's  missed / open by ourselves.
   My first posting regarding the WENTZELL family and what else can I say but it's just brilliant to what info has come from my first posting.

  Special thank you to TAZZIE & ANNETTE7.

Regards J
Maycock LAMBETH 1700-1960's
Burcham NORFOLK ??/LAMBETH 1700 - 1960's
Wentzell CRIPPLEGATE/SOUTHWARK 1700-1960's
Sadler CAMBERWELL / LEWISHAM 1700 - 1960's
Elliott WALWORTH / 1700 -1960's
Lepine FRANCE/KENT/WALWORTH/1550's-1950's
Barnes DORSET / WALWORTH

Offline Brickwall Demolisher

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THANKS EVERYONE. Re - Last Posting for Wentzell enquiry.
« Reply #12 on: Friday 05 January 18 10:27 GMT (UK) »
Thanks everyone for quick response,
   Will hopefully eventually reply to you all. Did not quite expect as much. Doing family history whilst in post stroke recovery.I'm having / trying to contend with neuropathic pain at present, will get back to all as and when. Thanking you all for everything again. Happy Hunting

Regards Just J




Maycock LAMBETH 1700-1960's
Burcham NORFOLK ??/LAMBETH 1700 - 1960's
Wentzell CRIPPLEGATE/SOUTHWARK 1700-1960's
Sadler CAMBERWELL / LEWISHAM 1700 - 1960's
Elliott WALWORTH / 1700 -1960's
Lepine FRANCE/KENT/WALWORTH/1550's-1950's
Barnes DORSET / WALWORTH

Offline tazzie

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Re: Unable to find birth / Wentzell Marriage Registration's
« Reply #13 on: Friday 05 January 18 14:47 GMT (UK) »
We all share a very addictive little hobby. It's full of high and lows and we all love a challenge.

Hope you start to get back to your old self.

Best wishes for the new year.

Tazzie
Liscoe -all
Green/Simpson/Underwood-Beds
Walker/Foulkes/Fookes/Fooks/Hedges/Lamborne-Bucks.
Stanton/Pattrick/Cooper/Fitzjohn/Holland/Spalding-London
 Rewallin/Underwood -Devon
 Casbolt-London/Cambridge
 Favell/Favel - Lincs-Beds

 This information is Crown Copyright from
   www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Brickwall Demolisher

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Re: Unable to find birth / Marriage Registration's
« Reply #14 on: Friday 05 January 18 19:41 GMT (UK) »
There is also an entry in 1859 recording the reading of banns between Albert Wentzell and Charlotte Sadler November 27 December 4 & December 11 at All Saints Poplar.

Living in same street according to marriage register in 1871 Charlotte as a spinster.
James could well be the father but debunked to the military and his brother stepped in.

I have a similar in my family brother steps in and they marry quietly when the children are older.

Tazzie
n

Tazzie
     Many thanks for your help on my request and for your concern.
      Your banns finding look very interesting especially the 1859.

1861 census Charlotte at home with the 2 boys. I have a query with this entry no HEAD of household is shown, but Charlotte is entered as Wife and the boys as sons. Has the head of household been somehow missed / left off?? Surely CHARLOTTE should Head not Wife

1871 Census
   ALBERT WENTZELL entered as Head
    CHARLOTTE WENTZELL as Wife  +  the 2  boys
           They eventually marry in JULY of that year
 CHARLOTTE WENTZELL dies 1874

We have never been able to locate HARRY WENTZELL supposedly born 25/10/1854 birth certificate. From obituary on HARRY WENTZELL death Bonners Ferry,Ohio.1930
 
Your JAMES debunking into military is also a major possible reason that I have.
 We have 2 in our thoughts JAMES JOHN b 1816 but dismiss him because of a approx 17 year age difference. His wife dies MARIA d 1855.
   JAMES THOMAS b 1839 we also have, son of JAMES JOHN b1816
JAMES THOMAS enters Nov.1856/7  20th Regiment Hussars for approx. 20 year career mainly in India and is discharged Jan 1878 for health reasons.
 The time line holds my questioning on both of them. JAMES JOHN was christened JOHN JAMES and then changed it around for whatever reason?? If JAMES JOHN had not made this change we would not be querying who was the Father.
JAMES THOMAS b 1839 Apr Marries 1876 Brentford

The boys birth year's supposedly between 1853 / 1857, both born in Liverpool area. This is the only time CHARLOTTE is out of the London. I am thinking it could be something connected if possible to JAMES THOMAS training ???? for his Army career but have yet to find where if any records are available


Regards Just J



Maycock LAMBETH 1700-1960's
Burcham NORFOLK ??/LAMBETH 1700 - 1960's
Wentzell CRIPPLEGATE/SOUTHWARK 1700-1960's
Sadler CAMBERWELL / LEWISHAM 1700 - 1960's
Elliott WALWORTH / 1700 -1960's
Lepine FRANCE/KENT/WALWORTH/1550's-1950's
Barnes DORSET / WALWORTH

Offline Brickwall Demolisher

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Re: Marriage Registration's / Banns info
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 20 January 18 15:50 GMT (UK) »
An entry in 1859 recording the reading of banns between Albert Wentzell and Charlotte Sadler November 27 December 4 & December 11 at All Saints Poplar.

Hi everyone,
    Thank you Tassie for supplying the above info previously.
 Are you able or is  anyone able to supply any further relevant information on the above Banns entry.
 This find is a very interesting one as it is showing of the relationship between CHARLOTTE & ALBERT was there before our findings,... our earliest being 1871 Census.
ALBERT was not found around before the 1871 Census with CHARLOTTE.
 Earlier we had CHARLOTTE with her family on the 1851 Census.
  In between the 1851 & 1861 she has 2 sons, both born in Liverpool area, but is back in the area where she was born for the 1871 Census.
  The query is why so long between 1859 and to when they got married in JULY 1871. As much info that is possible please.
Many thanks everyone for your interest and time,

Regards JUST J.






Maycock LAMBETH 1700-1960's
Burcham NORFOLK ??/LAMBETH 1700 - 1960's
Wentzell CRIPPLEGATE/SOUTHWARK 1700-1960's
Sadler CAMBERWELL / LEWISHAM 1700 - 1960's
Elliott WALWORTH / 1700 -1960's
Lepine FRANCE/KENT/WALWORTH/1550's-1950's
Barnes DORSET / WALWORTH

Offline chempat

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Re: Unable to find birth / Wentzell Marriage Registration's
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 20 January 18 16:54 GMT (UK) »
Just to pick up this, you have put:

'1861 census Charlotte at home with the 2 boys. I have a query with this entry no HEAD of household is shown, but Charlotte is entered as Wife and the boys as sons. Has the head of household been somehow missed / left off?? Surely CHARLOTTE should Head not Wife'

Surely it just means that the Head of household is absent on the census date, and so Charlotte is regarded as wife to the absent Head?