Author Topic: help with testements? from 1650s  (Read 522 times)

Offline daval57

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help with testements? from 1650s
« on: Friday 05 January 18 16:04 GMT (UK) »
Is anyone willing to decipher 2 documents (a few paragraphs from Scottish testaments) that I have from the 1650s?

I obtained them from ScotlandsPeople but am unable to decipher any more than a few obvious words and names.

One is made harder because the writing on the reverse page is showing through.

Being from SP, am I allowed to post them on this forum?

I attach a screenshot of part of one of them as an example.

Thanks,

Dave
-------------------
FORREST (Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Stirlingshire and Dunbartonshire)
ROONEY (Co Down, Co Antrim) 
BORTHWICK, FORTUNE, BARKER, SIVES (Lothians)
ANDERSON (Moray, Caithness)

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Offline goldie61

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Re: help with testements? from 1650s
« Reply #1 on: Friday 05 January 18 20:26 GMT (UK) »
You are allowed to post some of any document you find.
You say you have 'a few paragraphs'.
Why don't you start with the first paragraph, and we'll see how we go from there.

Old Scottish documents ARE quite difficult - it's not just the style of writing, (and the bleed through, as you say), but they also use a lot of words and legal terms specific to Scotland.

But we can try!  ;)

It's also helpful to give as much information as you already know - eg names, dates, places, as this can help with 'decoding' the style of handwriting and how the scribe forms their letters.
I can see 'Andro' (Andrew), Agnes , Barbara and Joane on this snippet - so the actual formation of the letters don't look too unrecognisable.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

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Offline daval57

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Re: help with testements? from 1650s
« Reply #2 on: Friday 05 January 18 20:56 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for the quick response and I'll appreciate any help deciphering it.  Absolutely no hurry. 

This is the 1st paragraph in the earliest document from 1652.
The surname is clear enough - Ruckhart and I recognise Duntiblae in the parish of Lenzie.
I know that later family lived and worked in Duntiblae Milne (mill) which is now in Kirkintilloch in Dunbartonshire so it seems the parish boundaries changed.

Because I'm unable to read much of the document, I'm unsure whether subsequent paragraphs are relevant, or are an entry for another person.

Thanks again,
Dave


-------------------
FORREST (Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Stirlingshire and Dunbartonshire)
ROONEY (Co Down, Co Antrim) 
BORTHWICK, FORTUNE, BARKER, SIVES (Lothians)
ANDERSON (Moray, Caithness)

Offline daval57

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Re: help with testements? from 1650s
« Reply #3 on: Friday 05 January 18 21:08 GMT (UK) »
..... I've said that's the 1st paragraph - but unsure, again because I can't read it.  It may become more apparent once we know what it says.

Dave
-------------------
FORREST (Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Stirlingshire and Dunbartonshire)
ROONEY (Co Down, Co Antrim) 
BORTHWICK, FORTUNE, BARKER, SIVES (Lothians)
ANDERSON (Moray, Caithness)

Offline goldie61

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Re: help with testements? from 1650s
« Reply #4 on: Friday 05 January 18 22:52 GMT (UK) »
The Testa(men)t dative & Inventare of the guds gere debtes & sowmes of money Q(uhi)lles
perteinit to umq(uhi)ll Ro(ber)t Ruckhart at duntieblae w(i)t(h)in the parochine of Leanzie
the tyme of his deceis q(u)a deceissit in the moneth of de(cemb)er 1650 yeires fayt(h)fullie maid
& given up be Rob(er)t Laying now in duntiblae spouse to Margaret Millare relict
of the s(ai)d umquill Rob(er)t exe(cut)or dative surrogat in place of Mr Jo(h)n herbertsone pro(curat)or fiscall
of the sherefdomes of Lanerk dumbaretane & Buit Qua is exe(cut)or dative decernit to the
defuncts guds geir & debts Be de(crei)t of the said [  ] prin(cipa)ll & com(m)issar of the said Sheref-
domes of Lanerk dumbartane & Buit upone the xxj of Sept(emb)r 1652 yeirs As the
same in the selff(?) at length beirs


Inventare

guds - goods
quhilles - which
Umquille - former; late; sometime
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/dost/umquhile
parochine - parish
qua - who
deceis, deceissit - die,
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/dost/deces_v
relict - widow
beirs - bears

This is pretty much a standard opening paragraph for a testament dative.

You can see the DSL (Dictionary of the Scottish Language) is a very helpful site!

Looks as if the interesting bit is the next part.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline GR2

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Re: help with testements? from 1650s
« Reply #5 on: Friday 05 January 18 23:06 GMT (UK) »
The Testament dative and Inventare of the guds geir debts and sowmes of money qlk
perteinit to umqll Rot Ruckhart at Duntieblae wtin the parochine of Leanzie
the tyme of his deceis qa deceissit in the moneth of der 1650 zeirs faytfullie maid
and given upe be Rot Layng now in Duntiblae spous to Margaret Millare relict
of the sd umqll Rot exer dative surrogat in place of Mr Jon Herbertsone pror fiscall
of the sheriffdomes of Lanerk Dumbartane and Buit qa is exer dative decernit to the
defuncts guds geir and debts be decreit of the sd sheriffs prinll and commissaries of the sd sheriff-
domes of Lanerk Dumbartane and Buit upone the xxi of Septr 1652 yeirs as and the samen in the self at length beirs

The testament dative and inventory of the goods, gear, debts and sums of money which pertained to the late Robert Ruckhart at Duntieblae within the parish of Lenzie the time of his decease, who deceased in the month of December 1650 years, faithfully made and given up by Robert Laing, now in Duntieblae, spouse to Margaret Millar, relict (= widow) of the said late Robert, executor dative surrogate in place of Mr John Herbertson, procurator fiscal of the sheriffdoms of Lanark, Dumbarton and Bute, who is executor dative decerned to the defunct's (= deceased's) goods, gear and debts by decree of the said sheriffs principal and commissaries of the said sheriffdoms of Lanark, Dumbarton and Bute upon the 21st September 1652 years, as the same in itself at length bears.

Offline GR2

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Re: help with testements? from 1650s
« Reply #6 on: Friday 05 January 18 23:09 GMT (UK) »
Snap, Goldie  ;D

Offline daval57

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Re: help with testements? from 1650s
« Reply #7 on: Friday 05 January 18 23:20 GMT (UK) »
That is amazing work, from both of you.  Thank you.
Impressed at how quickly you managed to work through it.

I'm logging off for this evening now, but in the offchance that you will be happy to do a bit more, here is the next paragraph.

Do you mind if I post more as we go along?  I don't want to impose, nor do I take your efforts for granted.  It's really appreciated.

Dave
-------------------
FORREST (Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Stirlingshire and Dunbartonshire)
ROONEY (Co Down, Co Antrim) 
BORTHWICK, FORTUNE, BARKER, SIVES (Lothians)
ANDERSON (Moray, Caithness)

Offline GR2

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Re: help with testements? from 1650s
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 06 January 18 00:31 GMT (UK) »
Item the defunct had the tyme of his deceis foirsd pertaining to him all his
awin proper the guds and geir underwrn of the pryces following viz. In the first
in barn and barnyard threshin and unthreshin twentie bolls of corne pryce of
the boll wt the fodder viii li. inde (= Latin for "hence") ic & lx li. Item mair the foure bolls beir pr
of the boll wt the fodder x li. inde xl li. Item foure kye pryce of the peice
of heid vxi li. inde lxiiii li. Item twa young quoyes pryce of the peice
viii li. inde xvi li. Item ane horse pryce xxxiii li. vi s. viii d. Item the insyt
of the house in utenceills and domiceills wt the abulzements of the defuncts bodie
estimat worth ic lxvi li. xiii s. iiii d.

Suma of the Inventare iiic & lxxx li.

Item the defunct had the time of his decease foresaid pertaining to him all his own proper the goods and gear underwritten of the prices following viz. In the first, in barn and barnyard threshed and unthreshed twenty bolls of corn (= oats), price of the boll with fodder 8, therefore 160; Item more, the four bolls of bere (= a kind of barley), price of the boll with the fodder 10, therefore 40; Item four cows, price of the piece per head 16, therefore 64; Item two young heifers, price of the piece 8, therefore 16; Item a horse, price 33 6s. 8d.; Item the insicht (= household goods) of the [house] in utensils and domiciles (= household effects) with the abulyiements (= clothing) of the defunct's body estimated value 166 13s. 4d.

Total of the Inventory 480.

[The money is, of course, not in Sterling, but pounds Scots.]