Author Topic: help with testements? from 1650s  (Read 527 times)

Offline daval57

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Re: help with testements? from 1650s
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 06 January 18 04:56 GMT (UK) »
Thanks again.  So interesting.  It's beyond me how you managed to read all of it.  Even now, comparing your transcription with the document, I'm still struggling to make it out.

I think I can make out some of the next paragraph including some names.... I'm not sure whether this is debts owed by Robert, or to Robert by the people named.

"Debts unpaid? ....
Item the ? was? award?....to the defunct the tyme ..... of money following 25 li the persones? ............... 25 li ... Stewart of Bal...... David Andersone in ....... Matthew Hamiltone ........ of Glasgow...
......."

Then I completely lose it again.  I can see Duntiblae mentioned again.

What I thought was the end of the document looks now as though it continues onto another page which I have now also obtained from SP.  Is it asking too much to post much more than I initially thought?

Attached is the remainder of the first page, but I believe now that there might be another 4 paragraphs on the following page. 

I'm trying to do it myself, but really struggling. 

Please say if I'm asking too much. 

Dave

-------------------
FORREST (Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Stirlingshire and Dunbartonshire)
ROONEY (Co Down, Co Antrim) 
BORTHWICK, FORTUNE, BARKER, SIVES (Lothians)
ANDERSON (Moray, Caithness)

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Offline goldie61

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Re: help with testements? from 1650s
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 06 January 18 05:57 GMT (UK) »
Debts awand xx

Item there was awand To the defunct the tyme foirsaid the sowmes of money
following Be the persones und(er)wre(tt)en Viz In the first Be Jo(hn) Stewart of
Balshaurie david andersone in gartnavill & Matthew Hamiltone
burges of glasgow iij C xxxiij li ij s viijd  prin(cipa)ll sowme w(i)t(h) xxli of
bygane @rent preceeding the defuncts deceis & q(uhi)ll @rent is payit sen
syne Item be Jo(hn) Hay yo(ung)er in duntiblae j C li prin(cipa)ll sowme w(i)t(h) xvij li of
bygane @rent at the leist penaltie be band Item be Jo(hn) Burnes
ham(m)erman in glasgow for ane boll of meill viij li

Sum(m)a of the debts In                     iiij C lxxix li v s viij d
Sum(m)a of the Inventare & debts      ix C lix li vj s viij d
debts awand out xx

Item there was awand Be the defunct the tyme forsaid the sowmes of money
following To the persones und(er)wr(itt)en Viz In the first to Joane Smart of


It may be easier to see the last line when you post the next clip.
You may need to check to place names.



awand - owing
@rent - annualrent. Interest on money lent, chiefly (though not always) paid from the yearly rent out of land.
be band - be bound
bygane - in the past (like ‘bygone’ I guess}
sensyne - since then
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/dost/sensyne
ane - one


Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

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Offline GR2

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Re: help with testements? from 1650s
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 06 January 18 06:32 GMT (UK) »
Item there was awand to the defunct the tyme foirsd the sowmes of money
following be the persons wndwren viz in the first be Jon Stewart of
Balshagrie David Andersone in Gartnavill and Matthew Hamiltone  merd
burges of Glasgow iii c xxxiii li. vi s. viii d. prinll sowme wt xx li. of
bygane annualrent preceiding the defuncts deceis and qlk annualrent is payit sen
syne item be Jon Hay yor in Duntiblae i c li. prinll sowme wt xvii li. of
bygane annualrent at the leist penaltie be band item be Jon Burnes
hamerman in Glasgow for ane boll of meill viii li.

Suma of the debts in - iiii c lxxix li. vi s. viii d.
Suma of the Inventare and debts ix c lix li. vi s. viii d.

There was owing to the deceased the time foresaid the sums of money following by the persons underwritten viz. In the first, by John Stewart of Balshagray, David Anderson in Gartnavel and Matthew Hamilton, merchant burgess of Glasgow, £333 6s. 8d. principal sum with £20 of bygone annualrent (= interest) preceding the defuct's decease and which annualrent is since paid; item by John Hay younger in Duntiblae £100 principal sum with £17 of bygone annulrent at the least penalty by bond; item by John Burns, hammerman (= metalworker) in Glasgow for a boll of meal (= oatmeal) £8.

Sum of the debts in - £479 6s. 8d.
Sum of the Inventory and debts £959 6s. 8d.

I have not done the last four lines here as they are part of the next section - "debts awand out" (= debts owed)

Offline daval57

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Re: help with testements? from 1650s
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 06 January 18 08:47 GMT (UK) »
This is the continuation from the previous page.  To me, it is even harder to read. 
There are two further paragraphs after this one, then it moves on to the testament of another person.



-------------------
FORREST (Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Stirlingshire and Dunbartonshire)
ROONEY (Co Down, Co Antrim) 
BORTHWICK, FORTUNE, BARKER, SIVES (Lothians)
ANDERSON (Moray, Caithness)

Offline goldie61

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Re: help with testements? from 1650s
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 06 January 18 21:44 GMT (UK) »
of fie & bounteth the said yeir iiij li Item to Jonet Ruckhart of fie & bounteth the said
yeir liij s iiij both payat since the defuncts deceis
 Summa of the debts out                                       vj li xiij s iiij d
Rests free geir debts deduct                                 ix C lij li xiij  s iiij d
To be divyded in three pairts             
deides pairt is                                                       iij C xvij li xi s ij d    ob




The rest is about the Sheriffs ratifying the testament and inventory and comitting ‘full power of Intromissione’. At Glasgow, twenty first of Sept 1652.

At first I didn't think this was the next page that followed on from the last one you had posted.
I had expected to see more 'debts owed'.
But the first phrase on this clip echoes the last line of the previous clip " of fie & bounteth the said yeir iiij li", so I think they have done it to show it carries on to the next page.

'of fie & bounteth' = the actual money salary [fee] and things like shoes and clothing given in addition [bountith].

Some information about inheritance and the "dead's part":
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/FAQs/Questions/index.aspx?380
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline daval57

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Re: help with testements? from 1650s
« Reply #14 on: Sunday 07 January 18 12:17 GMT (UK) »
Thank you so much, and to Graham for the transcripts.  It's very much appreciated.  I wouldn't have been able to get anything like as far as you did.

So, do you think there is little point in trying to decipher the remaining part of the document as it is likely to be legalities, rather than anything that woud give clues to family etc ---- I see a few names in it, but perhaps they're just the lawyers or something.

I'm not going to be about much for the rest of today / tomorrow, but will study all you've done in more detail when I have more time at my computer.

The other will I have is from 1657 but seems to be in a similar form / script so I might be able to make a stab at it myself by comparison with the work you have both done for me on this document.

Dave
-------------------
FORREST (Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Stirlingshire and Dunbartonshire)
ROONEY (Co Down, Co Antrim) 
BORTHWICK, FORTUNE, BARKER, SIVES (Lothians)
ANDERSON (Moray, Caithness)

Offline goldie61

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Re: help with testements? from 1650s
« Reply #15 on: Monday 08 January 18 05:36 GMT (UK) »
Difficult to say what's in the other two bits.
Probably unlikely to give any genealogical information, but you never know.

This is not a 'will' as such. Not like we would think of as in an English will where there are bequests and family mentioned.
A 'testament dative' means he died 'intestate' - ie, without making a will, so this is just a reckoning up of his assets for distribution of the thirds.

Why not post it and we'll try and see what it says.

Good idea to try the next one yourself - that's what this board is all about!
Testament datives did tend to be written to a recognisable formula on the whole.
You can always post any bits you're really stumped with.  :)
Good luck.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs