Author Topic: Elizabeth White from London married James Watkins, 1839, Forest of Dean  (Read 701 times)

Offline hurworth

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Elizabeth White from London married James Watkins, 1839, Forest of Dean
« on: Tuesday 16 January 18 02:13 GMT (UK) »
She is full age and states that her father is John White, carpenter,

In 1851 and 1861 her approx year of birth is 1819 and she gives her place of birth as Marylebone and then St Marylebone (for some reason her husband has been recorded as Thomas in 1861).

I thought finding Elizabeth in London would be nigh impossible, so I've never really tried.  But there is a baptism for an Elizabeth White, parents John and Eleanor at St Marylebone on 11 April 1819 all it says for his occupation is "Trade".  It says that for many of the fathers on that page.

This same couple may also be the parents of Charles, 2 Sept 1822 (John is "Trade" again) and Emily, baptised 21 Sept 1825 at a year old (occupation Carpenter - some others on page are "Trade") - all baptised at St Marylebone.

So, IF this is Elizabeth, am I deluded in thinking they might be John White and Eleanor Burges(s) who married at St Mary, Newington on 24 Jan 1814, and then had a son John Alfred White baptised at St Saviour, Southwark on 17 Nov 1816?  Other possible children are:
Ann Adelaide White, baptised 3 Oct 1830 at Saint Saviour, Southwark, Surrey, England
Maria White, bap 25 Nov 1832 at St Saviour - John is a blindmaker.
Thomas, born 26 Apr 1833 (died before 1841 census I think) and George born 4 Jul 1835.  They were both baptised on 11 Nov 1835 and John is a blind maker.

Eleanor is a widow in 1841. 
Possibly this is John's death:
WHITE, JOHN       52     Order
GRO Reference: 1838  M Quarter in SAINT OLAVES UNION SOUTHWARK  Volume 04  Page 367

Is this all sounding too far-fetched?  I usually roll my eyes when I see trees with people dashing across the country .  The Watkins didn't name any children John or Eleanor (but they didn't have any daughters).  And what would have taken Elizabeth all the way to Forest of Dean on her own?

I haven't found Emily in later records and I may have a sighting of Charles in 1841 working as a carpenter in London but not staying with his family.

I welcome your thoughts.

Offline cuffie81

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Re: Elizabeth White from London married James Watkins, 1839, Forest of Dean
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 21 January 18 22:55 GMT (UK) »
Seeing as no one else has offered an opinion...

I don't think the couples named John and Eleanor in Marylebone and St Saviour are the same couple. Looking at the baptisms in both places, if it was the same couple, they would have to be moving back and forth which seems unlikely. It doesn't help that there are several couples named John and Eleanor in Middlesex/London/Surrey around this time though.

It doesn't rule out Elizabeth being your Elizabeth though, proving it is the tricky bit.


Just in case anyone else feels like taking a look...

Baptisms - St Marylebone:

11 Apr 1819  Elizabeth; trade; born 12 Mar 1819
04 Feb 1821  Jane; mech?; born 22 Dec 1821
22 Sep 1822  Charles; trade; born 17 Aug 1822
21 Sep 1825  Emily; Harcourt St; carpenter; born 15 Sep 1824

I've included Jane, bap. 1821, even though the father's occupation is 'mech' (merchant?) just for completeness of records with parents named John and Eleanor.

Baptisms - St Saviour:

08 Jan 1815  Eleanor; Guildford St; carpenter; born 13 Dec 1814
17 Nov 1816  John Arthur; Guildford St; carpenter; born 30 Sep 1816
02 Jun 1822  Mary; Red Cross St; carpenter; born 08 Jul 1818
02 Jun 1822  Joseph; Red Cross St; carpenter; born 20 Mar 1821
05 Oct 1823  Sarah Ann; Red Cross St; carpenter; born 11 Mar 1823
03 Oct 1830  Ann Adelaide; [source=FS]
25 Nov 1832  Maria; Guildford St; blind maker; born 21 Sep 1831
11 Nov 1835  Thomas; Guildford St; blind maker; born 26 Apr 1833
11 Nov 1835  William; Guildford St; blind maker; born 04 Jul 1835


Family in St Saviour:

1841 census - Saint Saviour, Southwark
Eleanor White with children Ann, Maria and William, living with married son John Arthur and his wife Harriet (Maycock?).
Ref HO107; Piece 1088; Book 3; Folio 40; Page 12;
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQKQ-F4P

1851 census - Saint Saviour, Southwark
Eleanor White with son William.
Ref HO107; Piece 1558; Folio 510; Page 65;
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGKQ-83Z


Possible GRO BMD references:

1839 Q4 Marriage - John Arthur White & Harriett Martha Maycock; Newington; 04; 345
1844 Q1 Birth - Harriet Eleanor Ann White (mmn: Maycock); Saint Saviour; 04; 500
1846 Q1 Birth - Jane White (mmn: Maycock); Saint Saviour; 04; 569
1847 Q4 Birth - John George White (mmn: Maycock); Saint Saviour; 04; 518



I had a look for Emily White, baptised Marylebone 1825, born Sep 1824, and found a possible marriage:

GRO reference:
1850 Q4 Marriage - James Balls & Emily White; Shoreditch; 2; 465

married: 01 Nov 1850; St Leonards, Shoreditch; banns
groom: James Balls (x); fa; bach; carpenter; High Street
bride: Emily White; fa; spin; -; High Street
grooms father: James Balls; sergeant
brides father: John White; carpenter
witnesses: Charles Steel?, Charlotte Steel?


I couldn't find this couple in subsequent censuses in Middlesex though. However, I could find a couple in Essex that very closely matched this couple, and for whom I couldn't find a marriage, so it's possible this marriage is a red herring.

References for the couple in Essex:

1841 census - Hutton, Essex
Emily (recorded as Emma) with mother Sarah, pre-marriage.
Ref HO107; Piece 322; Book 17; Folio 4; Page 3;
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQ28-SMQ

1841 census - Purleigh, Essex
James with parents James and Margaret, pre-marriage.
Ref HO107; Piece 327; Book 22; Folio 30; Page 20;
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQ2N-Z8W

1851 census - Hutton, Essex
James and Emily with Emily's mother Sarah.
Ref HO107; Piece 1774; Folio 244; Page 12;
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGVF-HT4

1861 census - Ingrave, Essex
Ref RG09; Piece 1075; Folio 176; Page 3;
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M749-33V

1871 census - Ingrave, Essex
Ref RG10; Piece 1657; Folio 40; Page 10;
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFFG-5R3

1881 census - Ingrave, Essex
Ref RG11; Piece 1757; Folio 67; Page 24;
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFFG-5R3

1891 census - Ingrave, Essex
Ref RG12; Piece 1381; Folio 137; Page 18;
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27D-4GFZ

1901 census - Ingrave, Essex
James, widowed, with sister Ann.
Ref RG13; Piece 1665; Folio 55; Page 7;
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9ND-X57


Possible GRO BMD references:
1851 Q3 Birth - John Balls (mmn: White); Billericay; 012; 10
1853 Q3 Birth - James Balls (mmn: White); Billericay; 04a; 103
1857 Q4 Birth - Sarah Balls (mmn: White); Billericay; 04a; 116
1860 Q3 Birth - Luke Balls (mmn: White); Billericay; 04a; 112
1862 Q3 Birth - Mary Balls (mmn: White); Billericay; 04a; 125
1864 Q3 Birth - George Balls (mmn: White); Billericay; 04a; 138

1901 Q1 Death - Emily Balls; age 73 (born c1828); Billericay; 04a; 298
1908 Q1 Death - James Balls; age 78 (born c1830); Billericay; 04a; 347

Baptism - All Saints, Hutton - SEAX D/P 143/1/4:
10 Aug 1828  Emily White; John & Sarah; carpenter; Hutton; page 25, no 195
Anderson Banks Beard Brewer Caves Clarke Clinch Cooling Cuff Denton Gamble Gibson Gunn Hunt Mills Muncey Norris Notzke Reid Robinson Searle Smith Trundle Turner Weedon Wells Wilson

Offline hurworth

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Re: Elizabeth White from London married James Watkins, 1839, Forest of Dean
« Reply #2 on: Monday 22 January 18 09:10 GMT (UK) »
Thank you cuffie for researching this.

I'd missed these baptisms:
02 Jun 1822  Mary; Red Cross St; carpenter; born 08 Jul 1818
02 Jun 1822  Joseph; Red Cross St; carpenter; born 20 Mar 1821
05 Oct 1823  Sarah Ann; Red Cross St; carpenter; born 11 Mar 1823

and I agree that these baptisms in Southwark make it unlikely that they're the same family that were in Marylebone.