Author Topic: Brainteaser trying to work out relationships from a will - Siffleet  (Read 2544 times)

Offline Barbara F

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,684
    • View Profile
Re: Brainteaser trying to work out relationships from a will - Siffleet
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 20 January 18 11:22 GMT (UK) »
Sorry I didn't get back to you yesterday but the will was longer than I expected.  I am finishing some notes on the relationships which I will post so that you can compare with your findings.

Barbara
Joy, Larkin, Twort, Baker, Whibley - Brenchley and Horsmonden area Kent
Fewell and Speller - Essex and London
Headington and Bateman - London
Feltwell - Norfolk and London
Lewin - India and NZ
Evan-Thomas - Wales and London
Purser and Cook - Hunts

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline Barbara F

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,684
    • View Profile
Re: Brainteaser trying to work out relationships from a will - Siffleet
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 20 January 18 11:46 GMT (UK) »
This is what I have deduced!  I recommend that you check the transcript against the image of the will.

Family groups other than that of nephew Thomas

1.   Cousin John Broomfield deceased and his daughter Sarah now the wife of Hollingdale
2.   Brother in Law Thomas Soper, his son John Soper and his daughter Jane the wife of Heath Note: as mentioned by Guy the term brother in law has several meanings.
3.   Late brother James Siffleet and his daughter Jemima
4.   Nephew Michael Siffleet of Worth and his 2 daughters, Hannah the wife of Thomas Collens of Worth Yeoman and Elizabeth Sifleet, spinster
5.   Christian Sturt and Thomas Sturt children of my Niece Elizabeth the Wife of William Sturt
6.   Kinswoman Mary Gansey daughter of Detemia Gansey
7.   Nathaniel Willy, Edward Willy, William Willy Richard Willy , Sarah Willy Elizabeth Willy and Mary Willy sons and Daughters of my Niece Elizabeth Willy


Thomas Siffleet and family

1.   Thomas Sifleet nephew
2.   Wife Ann
3.   Children Thomas Siffleet, Stephen Siffleet, Josiah Siffleet*, William Siffleet , James Siffleet, Michael Siffleet, Elizabeth Siffleet, Sarah Siffleet

You will be able to deuce that some of those mentioned are under 21 at the time the will was written.  The Sussex Family History Group has a baptismal index and it would be worth you checking that although you will need to become a member.

Good luck.

Barbara


Edit: forgot the footnote
*Kinsman Josiah Siffleet.  Later refers to him as “my aforesaid kinsman Josiah Siffleet another son of my nephew Thomas Siffleet “and also as “my said nephew Josiah Sifleet”.  I think they all mean the same person.
Joy, Larkin, Twort, Baker, Whibley - Brenchley and Horsmonden area Kent
Fewell and Speller - Essex and London
Headington and Bateman - London
Feltwell - Norfolk and London
Lewin - India and NZ
Evan-Thomas - Wales and London
Purser and Cook - Hunts

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline jonw65

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,052
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Brainteaser trying to work out relationships from a will - Siffleet
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 20 January 18 12:39 GMT (UK) »
Sussex Marriage Index has
Thos Siffleet + Ann Nye
20 June 1786, Chailey
Both of the parish.
By banns, witnesses Rich Norman, Jn Baker
seems to indicate that Ann marked.

There is also a marriage at St Thomas at Cliffe, 8 October 1781
Micah Siffleet + Elizabeth Franks
by licence, transcript says -
Both 21 years and upwards
Micah was a Yeoman, other bondsman Abraham Atherell, Malster
See the marriage here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-62RQ-PN6?i=232&cat=216922

But is Michah the Michael Siffleet of Worth?
John

Offline lucymags

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 260
  • Slowly but surely...
    • View Profile
Re: Brainteaser trying to work out relationships from a will - Siffleet
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 20 January 18 12:55 GMT (UK) »
Just a brief note from my tablet to say thanks very much for all of your work, Barbara, and thanks to John for those extra records.

I have spent hours this evening, after adding what I thought was correct or likely on these characters, on a separate but related conundrum, which I'll post when time allows and after I've examined and compared this new information. (I found some more about Michael - had many children and died in Brighton, I think - but not following up everyone there because not my line.)

Offline jonw65

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,052
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Brainteaser trying to work out relationships from a will - Siffleet
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 20 January 18 13:11 GMT (UK) »
I did also find some 1798 land tax payments by Thomas for land in Newick and Chailey, and noticed that the land called Trick in the will is actually ffrick/Frick.

More Land Tax records from 1780 onwards, if you want to wade through them!
Chailey
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DTS7-NP3?i=777&cat=326164
first mention of Thos Siffleet image 780

Newick
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6D9S-HY4?i=847&cat=326528


Offline lucymags

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 260
  • Slowly but surely...
    • View Profile
Re: Brainteaser trying to work out relationships from a will - Siffleet
« Reply #14 on: Sunday 21 January 18 06:07 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for those land tax records, John - will come back to them when I find the right moment!

I am going to start by making a few notes based on what I've found so far on the first group.

Family groups other than that of nephew Thomas
1.   Cousin John Broomfield deceased and his daughter Sarah now the wife of Hollingdale
2.   Brother in Law Thomas Soper, his son John Soper and his daughter Jane the wife of Heath Note: as mentioned by Guy the term brother in law has several meanings.
3.   Late brother James Siffleet and his daughter Jemima
4.   Nephew Michael Siffleet of Worth and his 2 daughters, Hannah the wife of Thomas Collens of Worth Yeoman and Elizabeth Sifleet, spinster
5.   Christian Sturt and Thomas Sturt children of my Niece Elizabeth the Wife of William Sturt
6.   Kinswoman Mary Gansey daughter of Detemia Gansey
7.   Nathaniel Willy, Edward Willy, William Willy Richard Willy , Sarah Willy Elizabeth Willy and Mary Willy sons and Daughters of my Niece Elizabeth Willy

1. Re the Broomfield connection - I found this marriage but haven't managed to work out the connection yet. Maybe Thomas landowner's (TLO) father? That would make TLO only born about 13 years after the marriage, but he would have Broomfield cousins. ???
Name   Thomas Siffleet
Event Date   12 Nov 1719
Event Place   Horsted Keynes, Sussex, England
Spouse's Name   Sarah Broomfield

2. My Soper family group concurs with this, except that upon looking at the script, deciphered "Hoath" rather than Heath, and found a burial of a Jane Hoath which seems to match:
Church name St George - Crowhurst (small village near Battle in East Sussex, although recorded as Surrey on FreeReg)
Burial date 17 Jun 1810
Person age 50
Burial person forename Jane
Burial person surname HOATH

And then, relating to no. 5, I have just found this record on FreeReg:
Place Henfield
Church name   St Peter
Marriage date   27 Mar 1788
Groom forename   William
Groom surname   STURT
Groom condition   bachelor
Groom parish   Ashurst
Bride forename   Elizabeth
Bride surname   SOPER
Bride condition   spinster
Bride parish   Henfield
Witness    Henry STURT
Witness    Jane SOPER
Register note    Licence. Groom William Sturt Junr

Does that latter note mean that the groom was under age, or...?

This one is tying my brain up in knots, because I'd initially created a sister Siffleet (possibly also a Jane?) to TLO who married a Soper and thus produced Jane Hoath (Soper) - but this is suggesting that Elizabeth Soper is the one who is the Soper and Sturt connection to the family. I need to ponder this further.

3. James and Jemima - tick.  :)

4. Michael and co. (possibly that Micah - will return to that) - all good, except that I found a marriage record for Hannah which uses the Collins spelling (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N228-HXP):
Name Thomas Collins
Spouse's Name Hannah Siffleet
Event Date 08 Dec 1802
Event Place Worth,Sussex,England

5. Connected to the Sopers somehow - see above. Need to work on these.
6. Haven't looked at Ganseys yet.
7. Ditto Willys, although wondering about the niece relationship. There are quite a lot of Willys and variations of the name - will come back to that one.

Edit: I have found a marriage of a Jane Soper to a James Heath in Chichesterm oddly, recorded twice on different dates: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NX4D-N6F and https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2Q4-3C5W (the latter perhaps a civil marriage, then the church marriage?). But the latter says she's a widow, so I think that rules her out. Just a strange coincidence?!
(That letter looks like a definite "o" to me, although I know that handwriting was different in those days.)

Offline lucymags

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 260
  • Slowly but surely...
    • View Profile
Re: Brainteaser trying to work out relationships from a will - Siffleet
« Reply #15 on: Sunday 21 January 18 07:00 GMT (UK) »
About Thomas Siffleet nephew (TSN) and family - all concur, although I do have a Robert supposedly born 1817 (at this stage undocumented, so not sure where he came from - will have to check, because that would make his mother Ann rather old.)

Re Josiah: I have one who would be contemporaraneous with brothers TSN and Michael:
Name Josiah Sifleet [sic]
Event Type Burial
Event Date 13 May 1832
Event Place Barcombe, Sussex, England
Age 79
Birth Year (Estimated) 1753

but also a Josiah who is son of TSN, 1796-1843 - with death record, 1841 Census record and a note (by someone else) "A bit of a rogue, who in 1840 pleaded guilty to stealing two bushels of wheat from John Ellis. Died in 1843 leaving a wife and 7 young children, of injuries sustained by a fall whilst wrestling."

John:
That Ann Nye marriage certainly looks possible - although the only Ann Nye baptisms I can see seem to be grouped around Henfield and Horsham areas - about 15-20 km from Chailey.

I also found possible marriages for TLO and his brother John, only a month apart:
Name   Thomas Siffleet
Event Type   Marriage
Event Date   07 Aug 1749
Event Place   Isfield, Sussex, England
Gender   Male
Spouse's Name   Sarah Juden
Spouse's Gender   Female

Name   John Siffleet
Event Type   Marriage
Event Date   07 Sep 1749
Event Place   Isfield, Sussex, England
Gender   Male
Spouse's Name   Sarah Durrant
Spouse's Gender   Female

- and also 2 infant burials in Bolney, 1758 (Sarah) and 1760 (Thomas), in which the mother is Sarah, which possibly tells the story about TLO's family?

I need to take a break now and restart my computer, but will return with the questions about the parentage of TLO and brothers...

Offline lucymags

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 260
  • Slowly but surely...
    • View Profile
Re: Brainteaser trying to work out relationships from a will - Siffleet
« Reply #16 on: Sunday 21 January 18 11:55 GMT (UK) »
Just one more note before I pack up for the night, having just spent hours tidying up my notes, cross-referencing, etc. I don't have time to fully document the other confusion I'm trying to sort out and clear up, but briefly, it is this.

A number of existing family trees have got Thomas the nephew (b. 1761 - aka TSN) as the son of a John Siffleet or Syfleet in Stockbury, Kent and some have put TSN born there as well). Having trawled through various records, I can find no definite verification of this, and also noted that the spelling is mostly Syfleet in Kent and Siffleet (Sifflett/Sifleet) in East Sussex.

Further, some of the trees put TSN's wife as Ann Calloway (1774-1855) (coincidentally, a name I found, aged 42ish in 1851 at Fletching Common, living with a John Calloway 10 years older), and his parents as John Siffleet (1731-1823) and Elizabeth Redman or Redmains (1735-1797 - a family more fully documented on other trees too).

Something just doesn't sound right about this, with no explanation or other evidence as to why all of the sons of the Stockbury John Syfleet/Siffleet are in Newick by 1800ish...
Also I found this death record for a Thomas born 1767 (which could possibly relate to a Thomas in Stockbury being confused with my Thomas):
SYFLEET, THOMAS        76   
GRO Reference: 1843  S Quarter in HOLLINGBOURN UNION  Volume 05  Page 201

The 1719 marriage (mentioned above) to Sarah Broomfield seem to be more likely parents, but makes that TLO was only born 13 years after the marriage, in 1732. OTOH, as his brothers seem to be deceased, him being the youngest son makes sense...

I'm too tired to go on now - still have quite a bit of work to do on Michael Siffleet (including some liaison with an overlapping tree) and will have to come back to the other people in the will. There's no rush for this and I don't know how much time I'll find in the coming week to work on this, but I'm determined to establish the parents of TLO, Josiah, John(?) and possible other siblings as well as the Sopers and the other little question markes, before I leave this line!

I still need to trawl through more Siffleets and Syfleets on various sources, and btw I also discovered this handy site, which sidetracked me for a while and I'll have to come back to: http://theweald.org/home.asp.

Offline lucymags

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 260
  • Slowly but surely...
    • View Profile
Re: Brainteaser trying to work out relationships from a will - Siffleet
« Reply #17 on: Monday 22 January 18 05:47 GMT (UK) »
Update:
I have managed to lock down or weed out most of the pesky players now, and I'm 99.9% certain that the Stockbury confusion arose from a Thomas Syfleet who was born 1768 in Stockbury.
I have got rid of the 1817 Robert, as he belonged to the Stockbury Thomas. So I think I can put Stockbury Syfleets to bed now, unless I encounter a link further up the tree.

I'm still working through the the tidy-up (have still to re-work the Sopers and other relatives listed above) before pushing on with the ancestors, but have a quick question here about Thomas the nephew's children (listed in the will Thomas Siffleet, James Siffleet . . . . . .William Siffleet, Michael Siffleet, Elizabeth Siffleet and Sarah Siffleet). I don't know if I can assume that the children are in order of age(wouldn't the first son usually take the father's name?), but the only ones I can't find any baptism or other records for as yet are James and Elizabeth. (Checked Ancestry, FindMyPast, FS.)

So any ideas about James and Elizabeth are welcome.

Edit: I have to give up soon, but I have found a record which could fit the Broomfield connection:
If Sarah Broomfield is TLO's mother, she could be the sister of the John Broomfield mentioned in the will; it also mentions his daughter Sarah. This could be those people:
Name Sarah Bromfield
Residence Place Maidstone, Kent, England
Gender Female
Christening Date 30 Aug 1719
Christening Date (Original) 30 Aug 1719
Christening Place Maidstone, Kent, England
Father's Name John Bromfield
Mother's Name Jane
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNV2-23X

Other Broomfields and Bromfields seem to be more in Kent than Sussex. But I'll have to return to this one.

Further edit: To add to the confusion, there's this info about Broomfields in Sussex: http://theweald.org/d10.asp?bookid=sac14c229&xid=A&xnm=1 - Elizabeths and Johns, involved, but the John mentioned there only had a brother called French (no offspring).