Author Topic: Irish names/ travellers  (Read 929 times)

Offline Elliebean54

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Irish names/ travellers
« on: Friday 19 January 18 10:32 GMT (UK) »
Hi I am fairly new to this, and to the board, but was hoping someone could help.

I'm revisiting and adding to research my mother started many years ago on her family, and have found a lot of evidence pointing to one branch of the family at least being Irish and by the 19th century in the East End of London, and possibly travellers.

The surnames involved are Abbott, Head, Toole (various spellings), with associated names O'Brian, Connolly (again, varied spellings) and possibly Land (variant?)

Some Abbott relatives, including as late as 1911 census, are described as "travellers" (both men and women)
There's lots of disappearing from the census record, then reappearing. Most are described as "general labourers" or boat-related workers.

In the family oral history there is a vague suggestion of traveller blood, and unfortunately some snobbery and looking down on the Abbotts in particular. I can't get a clear line of descent on them - all the online trees I've looked at contradict each other. There's also missing birth and marriage certificates, at least missing in England, and several early census descriptions of "Irish, Scottish or foreign parts".
 
My mother's DNA has been tested and is approaching 1/3 Irish celtic with no known recent Irish (or other celtic) ancestors.

Does anyone know anything about the names above? There's contradicting information online about traveller names, but Abbott does seem to come up. I've also seen Head described as an Irish name which surprised me, but that is one branch that does say non English in the census.
The other names sound obviously Irish, but is there a genuine distinction between traveller and general names? Anyone researched an Irish traveller families called Abbott or Head in particular, with East End connections in the 19th century?

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated

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Re: Irish names/ travellers
« Reply #1 on: Friday 19 January 18 10:46 GMT (UK) »
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ldf/  gets you all Head 1901 Census

Tick Show all information  box you'll see some born England

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Re: Irish names/ travellers
« Reply #2 on: Friday 19 January 18 10:48 GMT (UK) »

Offline Sinann

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Re: Irish names/ travellers
« Reply #3 on: Friday 19 January 18 11:46 GMT (UK) »
John Grenham has the name Abbott as English in origin.
https://www.johngrenham.com/surnames/
Doesn't mean there can't be travellers of the name but looking at Griffith's Valuation there were clearly lots who weren't.


Online heywood

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Re: Irish names/ travellers
« Reply #4 on: Friday 19 January 18 11:59 GMT (UK) »
Hello,
You have a selection of names there and it could get confusing with no knowledge of their origins.

Where do your 1911 Abbott family show as their birthplace? Have you traced them back?
If you wanted other eyes looking at the families, you could post some details. Otherwise, I would go back on that one line first to see what is revealed.

Heywood
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Elliebean54

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Re: Irish names/ travellers
« Reply #5 on: Friday 19 January 18 14:22 GMT (UK) »
Thank you for your responses

Hello,
You have a selection of names there and it could get confusing with no knowledge of their origins.

Where do your 1911 Abbott family show as their birthplace? Have you traced them back?
If you wanted other eyes looking at the families, you could post some details. Otherwise, I would go back on that one line first to see what is revealed.

Heywood

It was a general query regards name origins, maybe too general to have a useful answer!

The uncertainties actually date back to the 1841 census and before over several family branches, but one specific query:

Margaret Abbott b. 1877-78 in Limehouse father Henry Abbott.
She married in 1894 to William Branton and her marriage certificate says she was 18, but there's plenty of reason, including family oral history, to doubt this age, and I believe she was only 16 or even 15 (and gave birth about 3 months later hence reason for early marriage)

I've got all her post-marriage history, but I'm not even 100% sure about which Henry Abbott was her father, and there's several Margaret(t)s as well. I think I have her on the 1881 census in Limehouse aged about 3, father Henry (b. abt 1843) mother Margarett (b. abt 1846), and again in 1891 aged about 14.

Any pre 1894 certainty would be welcome. Later on at least some of her siblings are described as "travellers".

Sadly there was also some family prejudice toward her background at this time, including refusal to name children after her because she was considered too common. The family were all poor as preverbial church mice, so even that suggests there must have been something different about her or in her background.

Online heywood

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Re: Irish names/ travellers
« Reply #6 on: Friday 19 January 18 15:11 GMT (UK) »

The uncertainties actually date back to the 1841 census and before over several family branches, but one specific query:

Margaret Abbott b. 1877-78 in Limehouse father Henry Abbott.
She married in 1894 to William Branton and her marriage certificate says she was 18, but there's plenty of reason, including family oral history, to doubt this age, and I believe she was only 16 or even 15 (and gave birth about 3 months later hence reason for early marriage)

I've got all her post-marriage history, but I'm not even 100% sure about which Henry Abbott was her father, and there's several Margaret(t)s as well. I think I have her on the 1881 census in Limehouse aged about 3, father Henry (b. abt 1843) mother Margarett (b. abt 1846), and again in 1891 aged about 14.

The Margaret you have here looks to be the right one. She fits plus in 1901 her brother George is shown as brother in law to William Branton.
GRO shows her to be born in March quarter 1878.

William and Margaret Branton were also witnesses to her brother Williamís marriage.
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Re: Irish names/ travellers
« Reply #7 on: Friday 19 January 18 15:16 GMT (UK) »
You are posting in Ireland....are you looking for anyone in Ireland?

Online heywood

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Re: Irish names/ travellers
« Reply #8 on: Friday 19 January 18 15:22 GMT (UK) »
Looking back through censuses for Henry Abbott, the occupation seems to be a favourite in the family with no sign of travellers or Irish heritage  from 1851 onwards in the Abbott family.
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk