Author Topic: Cotton Industry of Greater Manchester - Migrants from the South  (Read 2120 times)

Offline Ramsin

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 72
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Cotton Industry of Greater Manchester - Migrants from the South
« Reply #27 on: Tuesday 23 January 18 14:59 GMT (UK) »
Like others, I've also been following this thread with interest.
..........................................
Cotton history

In my downloaded collection of free books from Google Books, I've got Baines’ 1823 A Complete History of the Cotton Trade in Manchester.  Although there will be information in the book which will have been superseded by more recent research (!), it has a detailed look at the start of the cotton industry in Manchester and bears out comments in this thread about what exactly was meant by ‘cotton’.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_JdYAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=A+complete+history+of+the+cotton+trade+in+manchester&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjXiqCZn-7YAhVCLsAKHdRhCuMQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

See PDF page 83 or page 58 onwards in the actual book.
...............................................
Statistics re. labour migration in the cotton industry

RusianPashayev asked about statistics in the original post regarding movement by labour from the south to Lancashire.  I don’t think that detailed information about internal migration during the Industrial Revolution can be found for free on the internet. – unfortunately!

I had a quick look around and maybe the bought version or library borrowed version of Rural Depopulation in England and Wales, 1851-1951 by John Saville might be worth having. A snippet version is available and looks good –

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=EfVEAQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=internal+migration+john+saville&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjyk8jOpO7YAhVEJcAKHXzvD0MQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=internal%20migration%20john%20saville&f=false

There is also 

Labour Migration in England, 1800-50 by Arthur Redford.

There is also a snippet view available and the contents page is worth looking at – it’s a  shame Map A in the appendix  is not available online (Migration between Counties in England) and Map E for migration into Liverpool, Manchester and Bolton.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_hMNAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

I am sure there are more books around that would answer the original question.


RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline Maiden Stone

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,284
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Cotton Industry of Greater Manchester - Migrants from the South
« Reply #28 on: Tuesday 23 January 18 16:53 GMT (UK) »
Cotton was first imported to England in 16th century. Early products were a mix of cotton and linen or worsted yarn.
www.spartacus-educational.com/Textiles.htm
It doesn't cite a primary source.

Interesting.
When you quote the import of cotton, does it state if they are talking about importing bolls for spinning and weaving, or spun cloth/fabric? 
I was thinking that probably England didn't import much from USA or India before colonisation/Empire, but of course Eygypt was weaving fine cotton cloth. Probably other countries on trading routes as well.
[/quote]
No elaboration on type of cotton. Spartacus Educational website has bite-sized chunks on each topic with links to sub topics, people etc. It has excerpts from primary sources with some (e.g. testimony of former apprentices) and suggests a few recommended books for each topic. It's an easy introduction to a subject.
Cotton had been introduced to Continental Europe before Britain. There seems to be no certainty about when. Different times to different countries. The 2nd lot of Flemish weavers to settle in Lancashire wore fustian, a mix of cotton and linen.
When John Leland mentioned  cotton production being a cottage industry around Bolton in his account to King Henry in 1540, he may have meant wool. www.bolton.org.uk/industry.html
I'm not sure if the fustian-wearing Flemish weavers had arrived in Bolton by then.

I've learned a few things about the history of cotton in the past few days. Many of my family were employed in the cotton industry in 20thC (+ a few in wool) and most of my mother's ancestors from mid 19thC onwards but I didn't know anything about the early history. The earliest of my mother's paternal ancestors I traced was a handloom weaver at beginning of 18thC. His 3x greatgranddaughter (my 3xGGM) worked in the linen industry;  most of the next 3 generations  of her family + some of the 4th  were cotton operatives. So they went from wool through linen to cotton.
Edit. I think that information about import of cotton into Britain came from the book by Baines to which Ramsin refers in post #27. (I missed reading that post earlier.)

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline RuslanPashayev

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 207
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Cotton Industry of Greater Manchester - Migrants from the South
« Reply #29 on: Tuesday 23 January 18 22:06 GMT (UK) »
Dear Friends,
so how many waves of Flemish textile workers there were in History of South East Lancashire?
1st Edward III and Philippa of Flanders, right - 1337?And that was Bolton and Manchester (or better say Salford?). Looks like Edward promoted intermarriages between locals and foreigners, they didnt live isolated lives but established the families just like Edward did (hahahah).
2nd 1567 Spanish aggression in Netherlands under Philipe II and Duc de Alba (Flemish are Dutch, and yeah Charles De Coster book speaks about religious persecutions which led to it). Not sure about their locations in Lancashire. I have heard of Knowsley Cottages, which reportedly belonged to Flemish.
3rd 1600 (not sure when exactly) and what was the reason??? William III (who was Dutch)??? Not sure about the location either.

There were Flemish weavers in Halifax, West Riding as well...fustian, right.

Thanks to everyone again. kind regards,
Ruslan

Offline Maiden Stone

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,284
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Cotton Industry of Greater Manchester - Migrants from the South
« Reply #30 on: Tuesday 23 January 18 22:38 GMT (UK) »
Some more reading:
A Compendious History of the Cotton Manufacture by Richard Guest, published 1823; Cass Library of Industrial Classics No. 16. Other titles in the series, listed at front of book, may be of interest. Available as pdf.

A Web of English History  -  The Peel Web:

Population Growth in the Age of Peel
www.historyhome.co.uk/peel/social/pop.htm

Letter from R.H. Gregg, Styal, Cheshire, September 1834 to Edwin Chadwick, Secretary to Poor Law Commission regarding shortage of labour in North of England and suggesting resettling surplus labourers from elsewhere. ( Styal Mill had imported pauper children earlier in the century.)
www.historyhome.co.uk/peel/poorlaw/gregg.htm

The Poor Law Commission
A trial run of the resettlement idea moved 85 people from Buckinghamshire to Lancashire in 1835. The Poor Law Commissioners organised migration of 4325 families to the industrial North between 1835-1837. They arrived just as the textile industry went into a depression. Most people went back home.
www.historyhome.co.uk/peel/poorlawcommission.htm




Offline ThrelfallYorky

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,139
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Cotton Industry of Greater Manchester - Migrants from the South
« Reply #31 on: Wednesday 24 January 18 16:13 GMT (UK) »
Are you doing this research as part of an academic programme of study, or for a publication, or what? You will get very specific help on here, but when I read your first post on this subject, it seemed such a woolly (sorry - but we did have wool up here long before cotton was ever imported) general enquiry, that I think some of us do not quite know which direction to take out knowledge in order to assist you. We seem to have presented you with enough directions for study for a Doctorate study.
Statistics you can find easily. What exactly are you wishing to study, please?
Threlfall (Southport), Isherwood (lancs & Canada), Newbould + Topliss(Derby), Keating & Cummins (Ireland + lancs), Fisher, Strong& Casson (all Cumberland) & Downie & Bowie, Linlithgow area Scotland . Also interested in Leigh& Burrows,(Lancashire) Griffiths (Shropshire & lancs), Leaver (Lancs/Yorks) & Anderson(Cumberland and very elusive)

Offline RuslanPashayev

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 207
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Cotton Industry of Greater Manchester - Migrants from the South
« Reply #32 on: Wednesday 24 January 18 16:27 GMT (UK) »
it is actually a  "wooly" general inquiry,as you referred to it,ahahhaah I am a ballroom dance teacher/coach from Ohio USA, so as you can figure I am not on a Doctorate program or anything hahahahaah. Neither I write books, may be one day on ballroom dancing techniques etc...I doubt you can help me with that, hahahah Anyways, thanks.

Offline RuslanPashayev

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 207
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Cotton Industry of Greater Manchester - Migrants from the South
« Reply #33 on: Wednesday 24 January 18 16:28 GMT (UK) »
but yeah you could see from my previous posts on this subject I mentioned several times cotton from colonies...so you can see I am aware that wool first then cotton, hahahahaha

Offline Viktoria

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,790
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Cotton Industry of Greater Manchester - Migrants from the South
« Reply #34 on: Thursday 25 January 18 00:09 GMT (UK) »
Ruslan, Flemings are Flemish, not Dutch,they speak a form of Dutch but there are  differences.
William was William of Orange well before Belgium came into being and Belgium was ruled by The Hapsburghs.Previously by The holy Roman Emperor and before that The Count of Flanders
In the 1800`s when Belgium was formed from French Flanders and Dutch Flanders French became the language but Flemings clung to their mother tongue. Flemish was    proscribed and children had to pay a fine at school if they drifted into their mother tongue.
Nothing was printed in Flemish so the language missed out on the technical terms being used in the industrial revolution.It became rather locked a  in previous era.
It is so like old English.
A group of Flemish writers could see the death of the language so began the Flemish revival.
The language was tidied up and a lot of letters removed from spellings.Previously people had been menschen later mensen -just as an example.
A wrist watch is "an arm band hour work"  _en arm band uur werk, in Dutch it would be" en horloge" .
Flemish groups a lot of words together, Stadgentopenbaarvervoermaatschappij. ie The city  of Gent public transport company.( This is on the side of the (long ) trams)!
It does not really go back to Latin roots.
I `ve never heard Philippa Of Hainaut called Princess of Flanders before.She was the mother of the Black Prince.
Best of luck with your research.You would have like a programme shown on T.V the other evening, it was about Styal Mill owned by the Gregg family, its use of child labour in very dangerous jobs.
It was originally waterpowered,a waterwheel.
                                                               Viktoria.
.

Offline Maiden Stone

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,284
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Cotton Industry of Greater Manchester - Migrants from the South
« Reply #35 on: Thursday 25 January 18 05:04 GMT (UK) »
Best of luck with your research.You would have like a programme shown on T.V the other evening, it was about Styal Mill owned by the Gregg family, its use of child labour in very dangerous jobs.
It was originally waterpowered,a waterwheel.
                                                               Viktoria.

The Channel 4 drama series "The Mill" was set there. Events in the 2 series took place around 1840. Some characters, including the Gregg family, were based on real people. Styal is in Cheshire but the Gregg family owned mills in Lancashire as well.