Author Topic: German patent application in Britain  (Read 615 times)

Offline Adam81

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German patent application in Britain
« on: Tuesday 23 January 18 23:29 GMT (UK) »
Hello,

My greatgreat father Karl Wackermann applied for a British patents via agents  in 1907 and 1909 : GB190915046 (A), GB190719805 (A) and also one in France - FR406258 (A). He lived in Germany and was German citizen at the time and I wonder why he applied for a patent in Britain? Although I managed to access copy of the patents via the European Patent Office there is very little information about the applicant there.
I know nothing about the patents and I was wondering what was the application procedure at the time? Was is expensive? Are there any other documents associated with these patents that I could search for?

Many Thanks

Adam
 
Wackermann
Molatta
Cuber
Cygan
Biela
Bielawski
Leibiniec
Dubeński
Wicher
Duzinkiewicz

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Offline Rena

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Re: German patent application in Britain
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 24 January 18 03:34 GMT (UK) »
Your ancestor's invention of electrically sending documents outside of his country meant he needed to protect the Intellectual Property of his invention in those other countries. As he didn't apply for a World Wide Patent he obviously thought his markets were in the two countries you name.  If he did not protect his invention, then others could steal his ideas by simply buying one machine and manufacturing their own machines which they could sell at a profit without spending years of costly research.

Unfortunately I could not find any online costs of the UK patenting process in the early 20th century.  First he would need to engage an experienced legal company (a Patent Attorney) to search through patents that had already been recorded to make sure his ideas had not already been filed.   Your ancestor would have been **invoiced for the time spent with the addition of any additional costs/letters sent, transport, etc.   If there was no other Intellectual Design patented then the Legal Patent Attorney would register the patent, or help your ancestor to register the Patent Rights which would be a further cost. 

**from memory I think our first invoice for legal preparatory work in the late 1980s was for £500.00 Sterling, several invoices followed for various work carried out.

Information for other people reading this thread:-

Here's an explanation of where to find British Patents.

https://www.bl.uk/help/find-early-british-patents

Apparently they can be accessed free of charge on this website:-

https://www.epo.org/searching-for-patents/technical/espacenet.html#tab-1

Here's a letter submitted to the editor of a British newspaper in the year 1908 which mentions the costs of acquiring a patent.

http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/19th-september-1908/16/the-new-patents-act

Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy
MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell
Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie
Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell
Perthshire: Brown Ferguson
Wales: McCarthy, Thomas
England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells
Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

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Offline Adam81

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Re: German patent application in Britain
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 24 January 18 17:28 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for a thorough explanation. I wonder if he was also selling his invention in Britain or France and  if there is any trace of his business left in.
 I have also received answer from British Library that might be interesting to some other genealogists:

The patent ‘file wrapper’ an electronic or paper folder that contains all of the documents pertaining to a particular patent application is destroyed 5 years after a patent is: abandoned, withdrawn/revoked or expired - due to non-payment or having run its life span, 20 years.

The original applications and associated documents would have been destroyed some time ago. The only available records are those that are available electronically on Espacenet.

Therefore, unfortunately, there is now no access to them.   


Wackermann
Molatta
Cuber
Cygan
Biela
Bielawski
Leibiniec
Dubeński
Wicher
Duzinkiewicz

Offline Rena

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Re: German patent application in Britain
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 24 January 18 19:40 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for a thorough explanation. I wonder if he was also selling his invention in Britain or France and  if there is any trace of his business left in.
 I have also received answer from British Library that might be interesting to some other genealogists:

The patent ‘file wrapper’ an electronic or paper folder that contains all of the documents pertaining to a particular patent application is destroyed 5 years after a patent is: abandoned, withdrawn/revoked or expired - due to non-payment or having run its life span, 20 years.

The original applications and associated documents would have been destroyed some time ago. The only available records are those that are available electronically on Espacenet.

Therefore, unfortunately, there is now no access to them.   


I'm just throwing some thoughts up in the air in case a light bulb comes on  :)

For instance my father had several of his engineering ideas patented but none were in his name. He worked for a manufacturing company and the name on the patent applications is the name of the company signed by a company director.  Thus, was your ancestor in a similar position and/or did your ancestor use a company name or a trade name?   My grandfather also patented one of his steam engine ideas but I haven't found the patent and he admitted it came to nothing

If a company or trade name comes to you, then there's a possibility that old business directories could be useful.   Leicester University has a free to use website where you can view old Historical Directories and I've found them useful for adverts and also private addresses. 
http://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/cdm/landingpage/collection/p16445coll4

Did you find those Patent reference numbers in the London Gazette?
  https://www.thegazette.co.uk/all-notices/content/100287

There are many archives around the country and many of them have been given old legal documents from defunct Solicitors and I was wondering whether you could be lucky enough to find what you are looking for in a dusty legal file somewhere.  It would help if you knew the name of the solicitor or the town where he filed his application.   Hopefully it isn't in the London Metropolitan borough Archive because there were over 300 Results when I searched for "Attorney".

url link:   http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lel/
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy
MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell
Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie
Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell
Perthshire: Brown Ferguson
Wales: McCarthy, Thomas
England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells
Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline Rena

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Re: German patent application in Britain
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 24 January 18 20:13 GMT (UK) »
Just for fun, I entered my gt. grandfather's name on the German Patent search site DEPATISnet  (Beginner facility) and was soooo surprised when his name appeared - there was just one thing wrong - the date was 100 years after my ancestor was born  ;D

url link

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lem/
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy
MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell
Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie
Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell
Perthshire: Brown Ferguson
Wales: McCarthy, Thomas
England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells
Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline Adam81

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Re: German patent application in Britain
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 24 January 18 21:41 GMT (UK) »
Thank you. These applications were patented in his name Karl Wackermann. I found his patents on https://worldwide.espacenet.com/.
GB190719805 (A) is signed by: HENRY O. KLAUSER,Civil Engineer,Agent for Applicant. and GB190915046A CHATWIN, HERSCHELL & Co.,London, W.C.,Patent Agents for the Applicant..
My Ancestor was insurance agent most of his live but he was also a fitter by profession. He also had a company (in his name) in the 30's that supplied various electrical fittings, bulbs etc. in the Silesia, Poland.
Wackermann
Molatta
Cuber
Cygan
Biela
Bielawski
Leibiniec
Dubeński
Wicher
Duzinkiewicz

Offline Rena

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Re: German patent application in Britain
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 25 January 18 01:53 GMT (UK) »
One important thing about being an inventor is that you must NOT give any information to anyone about the project you are working on until all the proverbial "T"s are crossed and"I"s dotted.  I think your ancestor was pipped to the post and didn't follow up on his invention.

I've now had a look through some newspaper publications on the British Newspaper Website.  There is no mention of any of the names we are looking for in connection with any type of printing/folding machinery.  However, there is a 1907 article of a British man who placed his new invention of a paper folding machine onto the market (article attached) 

"A New Printing Machine .
Manchester Courier and Lancashire General Advertiser (Manchester, England), Monday, March 18, 1907; pg. 9; Issue 15712. British Library Newspapers, Part III: 1741-1950"


-------
Due to more of the population being able to read the circulation of newspapers grew and I think your ancestor knew that modern machinery had to do all the printing and folding tasks more swiftly.  I also think he chose Britain and France because, like Germany, they too had colonies around the world and thus needed new technology to keep up with demand.
----
From another lengthy newspaper article written upon the death 24th September 1909 of a famous successful newspaper and manufacturing entrepreneur (surname "Hoe") who had factories in New York, America and also un Britain, it appears that great strides in the printing of, and publishing of, newspapers had been made.  The article states that their machinery had the largest market share.

Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy
MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell
Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie
Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell
Perthshire: Brown Ferguson
Wales: McCarthy, Thomas
England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells
Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline Adam81

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Re: German patent application in Britain
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 25 January 18 11:31 GMT (UK) »
Rena, I don't quite follow... So you are saying that his application was somewhat faulty and exposed to froud?
Also his invention was  for holding books open and leaf turning rather then printing itself.
Wackermann
Molatta
Cuber
Cygan
Biela
Bielawski
Leibiniec
Dubeński
Wicher
Duzinkiewicz

Offline Rena

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Re: German patent application in Britain
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 25 January 18 14:14 GMT (UK) »
Rena, I don't quite follow... So you are saying that his application was somewhat faulty and exposed to froud?
Also his invention was  for holding books open and leaf turning rather then printing itself.

Adam, I made a mistake concerning the Patent.  I jumped to the conclusion that it had something to do with the newspaper business when I read the response from the British Archive which you quoted:

You said:-  "I have also received answer from British Library that might be interesting to some other genealogists:

The patent ‘file wrapper’ an electronic or paper folder"

I had been looking for a paper folder and not looking for a gadget that turned pages

I should have read the DEPATnet website which clearly states "Tourneur pour feuilles de musique"  (page turner for musicians)

I recognise that the gadget could be used by any person reading a book and it may be that some gadgets were sold to home owners with a library, but there weren't many public libraries in the very early 20th century. As there were many injured soldiers returning from the Boer War, the Crimean War and the war with Bismarck I think many injured people could have found it useful.  I'm not saying his application was faulty or exposed to fraud.  His invention might well have been manufactured, sold and used in his homeland of Germany (and France), but I couldn't find an advert in his name or for his product in a British newspaper.

You wondered why your ancestor chose to patent his invention in Britain and France.  Considering how many thousands of orchestras, music academies and popular music halls, theatres, opera houses and dance halls there were, I can understand why your ancestor wished to protect his invention in Britain and France as well as his own country.   There is a history of Hanoverian musicians travelling around Europe.  Additionally (unlike today) many ordinary families in that era could play a musical instrument, for instance my father and his seven siblings learnt to play violin and piano and I can tell you that my mother's family owned a German Bechstein piano.

I have visited the British newspaper website again today and used several keywords but unfortunately I didn't find anything.  Coincidentally, however, there was quite a famous man with the surnames "Page Turner".

In all my years, I have never seen a mechanical page turner used in any classical music concert I have attended or viewed on TV.  Usually each musician turns their own pages, or an attendant stands by the musician and turns the pages.

Best Wishes,
Rena
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy
MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell
Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie
Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell
Perthshire: Brown Ferguson
Wales: McCarthy, Thomas
England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells
Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke