Author Topic: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin  (Read 4582 times)

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Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #18 on: Friday 26 January 18 10:37 GMT (UK) »
Hello Carol,   Thankyou for dating the photos, very helpful.  I did have a family in mind but the youngest daughter was born in 1887 making her 21 in 1908.  The girl on the extreme left looks younger with her hair down and large bow at the back.  Not good at guessing ages, what do you think the ages of the three women would be and is it possible the man on the right is the same as the man in uniform?

Regards,
Jen.

I think she could well be 21 yo and I think her hair is up and what you see behind is shadow...Just my opinion.
Carol
CAPES Hull. KIRK  Leeds, Hull. JONES  Wales,  Lancashire. CARROLL Ireland, Lancashire, U.S.A. BROUGHTON Leicester, Goole, Hull BORRILL  Lincolnshire, Durham, Hull. GROOM  Wishbech, Hull. ANTHONY St. John's Nfld. BUCKNALL Lincolnshire, Hull. BUTT Harbour Grace, Newfoundland. PARSONS  Western Bay, Newfoundland. MONAGHAN  Ireland, U.S.A. PERRY Cheshire, Liverpool.
 
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Offline aus*jen

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Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #19 on: Friday 26 January 18 11:55 GMT (UK) »
Hi Peter,  Thanks so much for your in depth analysis of the two photos I do appreciate your time
and expertise in placing the photos side by side.  It is so much easier to recognize the differences in the two men that way.  I can see the differences outweigh the similarities and that it is not the same man.

Another factor that is convincing is the address of the photographer found by Maureen.  The photographer was in Grays, Essex so it is difficult to imagine that someone who lived in Portsmouth would travel about 100 miles to Grays to have a photograph taken especially since there were photographers in Portsmouth as evidenced by the family group photo.

Without a positive identification of the uniform the identity of the man may remain a mystery.
Maybe a search of the census for family members would reveal a likely candidate living in Grays,
Essex. 

Regards,
Jen.



Boland   NSW, Australia
Gibbs   S.Aust. & Queensland
Jennings NSW, Australia
Page  Coventry UK, Queensland Aust.
Sellars (Sellard) Gloucestershire
Kirby  Lechlade, Gloucestershire
Hampshire  Stepney, Middlesex & Hampshire
Goddard,  Isle of Wight
Cushen, Isle of Wight
Keys,  Tyrone Ireland & NSW Australia

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Offline aus*jen

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Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #20 on: Friday 26 January 18 12:03 GMT (UK) »
Hi Carol,   Thanks for the comments in your two posts.  Good to know the young girl could be
                21, that will fit with a possible family I have in mind.

All the opinions so far agree the two men are not the same and there is convincing evidence from Peter to support that.

Regards,
Jen.
Boland   NSW, Australia
Gibbs   S.Aust. & Queensland
Jennings NSW, Australia
Page  Coventry UK, Queensland Aust.
Sellars (Sellard) Gloucestershire
Kirby  Lechlade, Gloucestershire
Hampshire  Stepney, Middlesex & Hampshire
Goddard,  Isle of Wight
Cushen, Isle of Wight
Keys,  Tyrone Ireland & NSW Australia

Offline rossko57

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Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #21 on: Wednesday 31 January 18 20:49 GMT (UK) »
The cap badge is not so obviously a crown in the enhanced photos.   Perhaps it's worth working on just that detail - it ought to be revealing.

The uniform certainly has a maritime flavour.  A crown, if such it is, would tend to negate stevedore or ferryman.  Harbourmaster / Pilot's office?  Customs cutter crew?

Offline aus*jen

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Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #22 on: Wednesday 31 January 18 23:56 GMT (UK) »
Welcome to RootsChat Rossko57.   Thankyou for your suggestion re the 'crown'.  On the original
it appears to be a crown (not certain of course) and the emblem is most likely embroidered rather than attached metal.  Maybe one of the restorers would take a closer look at it.

On the original, the top buttons have a crown in the centre, so most likely that includes all buttons.
The distinctive horizontal embroidery on the sleeve cuffs may also give a clue.

Will have a look at the occupations you suggest too, thankyou for those. 

I have been diverted from maritime occupations since the address of the photographer was
revealed as Grays, Essex,  113 Clarence Road is several blocks from the Thames.  I know nothing
about that area but perhaps there were dockyards there circa 1908-12?  Then, I agree with you that it is unlikely dockyards if it is a crown on the cap.   If he was a customs officer would he be
more likely to work on the Isle of Wight or Portsmouth rather than Grays, Essex?

Regards,
Jen.
Boland   NSW, Australia
Gibbs   S.Aust. & Queensland
Jennings NSW, Australia
Page  Coventry UK, Queensland Aust.
Sellars (Sellard) Gloucestershire
Kirby  Lechlade, Gloucestershire
Hampshire  Stepney, Middlesex & Hampshire
Goddard,  Isle of Wight
Cushen, Isle of Wight
Keys,  Tyrone Ireland & NSW Australia

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Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #23 on: Thursday 01 February 18 00:09 GMT (UK) »
Hi Jen....have you thought of posting it on Armed Forces board....they may be able to help.
Carol
CAPES Hull. KIRK  Leeds, Hull. JONES  Wales,  Lancashire. CARROLL Ireland, Lancashire, U.S.A. BROUGHTON Leicester, Goole, Hull BORRILL  Lincolnshire, Durham, Hull. GROOM  Wishbech, Hull. ANTHONY St. John's Nfld. BUCKNALL Lincolnshire, Hull. BUTT Harbour Grace, Newfoundland. PARSONS  Western Bay, Newfoundland. MONAGHAN  Ireland, U.S.A. PERRY Cheshire, Liverpool.
 
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Offline aus*jen

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Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #24 on: Thursday 01 February 18 01:00 GMT (UK) »
That is a good idea Carol.  I would have to link to the current post I guess - that is beyond
my expertise.  Simple for most but daunting for some.

Regards,
Jen.

Boland   NSW, Australia
Gibbs   S.Aust. & Queensland
Jennings NSW, Australia
Page  Coventry UK, Queensland Aust.
Sellars (Sellard) Gloucestershire
Kirby  Lechlade, Gloucestershire
Hampshire  Stepney, Middlesex & Hampshire
Goddard,  Isle of Wight
Cushen, Isle of Wight
Keys,  Tyrone Ireland & NSW Australia

Offline rossko57

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Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #25 on: Saturday 03 February 18 21:24 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for a welcome :)

Grays is right on the river, with a wharf that would have been busy with coastal vessels like colliers circa 1910.
It is on the estuary approach to London, the busiest port in the world at the time.  Quite likely boats based at Greys would meet large ocean going vessels, carrying out pilots and customs officers.

But - look at this Royal Navy junior officer for a very similar style, with the lapel buttons
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-royal-navy-sailor-of-the-late-victorian-or-edwardian-period-in-uniform-50489902.html
(the white cap cover is removable)

The blurry buttons and cap badge in that photo don't seem to match yours, but there is room for doubt.

If they don't match RN, who would use similar pattern tunics?

Customs cap badge most obvious feature is a portcullis grill, although that is topped off by a crown and usually set in a bowl of laurel leaves.

Similar uniforms
http://www.mycetes.co.uk/a/page152.html

UK lighthouses are run by Trinity House, a kind of trust, that does not use a crown badge.  There were lighthouses and lightships at work on the Thames estuary, and supply boats to service them.  One old
lightship was beached at Grays, suggesting it was some kind of home for T.H.  Plus there is a building named T.H in Grays which may once.. etc. (HQ is in London)

But note that Pilots (and pilot cutters) are Trinity House as well.
https://trinityhousehistory.wordpress.com/2013/03/28/trinity-house-pilotage-service-in-the-1890s/
The cap badge is sort of bowl of laurel leaves around an anchor, topped with a lion, which might resemble a crown.
http://www.mycetes.co.uk/a/image456.jpg

I might well be waay off here, but that uniform is neither copper nor postman nor railwayman.  Concievably any kind of shipping or naval operation.
Civilian shipping companies at the time would use elaborate heraldry for cap badges etc., but a crown is something official.    Matching buttons is upmarket, but does not exclude civvy shipping.
Railway companies, always fond of uniforms and fancy buttons, did also operate ferry services, and nautical style uniforms would be used here.  But you can almost always read their initials somewhere, e.g. LSWR

Need to see more of the cap and buttons!!

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Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #26 on: Sunday 04 February 18 04:52 GMT (UK) »
Hi Rossko57,  Thankyou for your definitive and very helpful comments.  Good to have the info.
on Grays.  The Royal Navy junior officer uniform is a great find and the most promising so far  ;D

Looking at likely families there were 4 and all had maritime backgrounds, Royal Navy, Customs (Isle of Wight, Brighton), Shipwrights (Portsmouth)  Within those families there were 6 contenders
of the right age for the 1908-12 photo.  1911 census revealed a postal worker, sailmaker, carpenter, newsagent, and 2 more promising occupations - 1 serving in Royal Navy and one
which needs interpretation.  He stated on 1911 census that he was a Captain RFRA Late LT 3 K O H.
Do you have any comments on what that occupation could be please?

I agree the uniform cap needs looking at more closely, when enlarged, the bar on the cap appears
to have writing/numbers on it.   I will ask the restorers if someone can enlarge the cap.

Regards,
Jen.
Boland   NSW, Australia
Gibbs   S.Aust. & Queensland
Jennings NSW, Australia
Page  Coventry UK, Queensland Aust.
Sellars (Sellard) Gloucestershire
Kirby  Lechlade, Gloucestershire
Hampshire  Stepney, Middlesex & Hampshire
Goddard,  Isle of Wight
Cushen, Isle of Wight
Keys,  Tyrone Ireland & NSW Australia