Author Topic: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin  (Read 10307 times)

Offline aus*jen

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 804
    • View Profile
Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #81 on: Monday 19 February 18 11:06 GMT (UK) »
Have received a response from the Curator of the Royal Navy Museum in Portsmouth regarding
the uniform in the photograph.  "It is not Royal Navy.  The absence of the fouled anchor on the
cap, and the cuff design, although distinctive, represents another organization...... HM Government
does have official maritime services which count as merchant marine, such as HM Customs and
Excise and the Royal Fleet Auxiliary......It does not match Trinity House Pilots, the Coastguard or
the Port of London Authority.....It does not match any of the Greenwich Hospital School uniforms
which I have seen in photographs...... The training ships, such as HMS Worcester at Greenhithe,
had their own forms of uniform.......Admiralty clerks had a uniform based on the Midshipmen's
uniform but I have not traced a suitable image for it"

Plenty of scope for research there.


Jen.
Boland   NSW, Australia
Gibbs   S.Aust. & Queensland
Jennings NSW, Australia
Page  Coventry UK, Queensland Aust.
Sellars (Sellard) Gloucestershire
Kirby  Lechlade, Gloucestershire
Hampshire  Stepney, Middlesex & Hampshire
Goddard,  Isle of Wight
Cushen, Isle of Wight
Keys,  Tyrone Ireland & NSW Australia

Offline Wiggy

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 9,423
  • coloured by Gadget
    • View Profile
Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #82 on: Monday 19 February 18 20:13 GMT (UK) »
Narrowing the search then, Jen, if nothing positive! 
Gaunt, Ransom, McNally, Stanfield, Kimberley. (Tasmania)
Brown, Johnstone, Eskdale, Brand  (Dumfriesshire,  Scotland)
Booth, Bruerton, Deakin, Wilkes, Kimberley
(Warwicks, Staffords)
Gaunt (Yorks)
Percy, Dunning, Hyne, Grigg, Farley (Devon, UK)
Duncan (Fife, Devon), Hugh, Blee (Cornwall)
Green, Mansfield, (Herts)
Cavenaugh, Ransom (Middlesex)
 

 Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.

Offline aus*jen

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 804
    • View Profile
Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #83 on: Tuesday 20 February 18 07:45 GMT (UK) »
Yes, Wiggy, a few eliminations there - narrows the field quite nicely.

And another to eliminate:-

The Director of the Royal Dockyards has responded that it is not a Dockyard uniform.

Jen.
Boland   NSW, Australia
Gibbs   S.Aust. & Queensland
Jennings NSW, Australia
Page  Coventry UK, Queensland Aust.
Sellars (Sellard) Gloucestershire
Kirby  Lechlade, Gloucestershire
Hampshire  Stepney, Middlesex & Hampshire
Goddard,  Isle of Wight
Cushen, Isle of Wight
Keys,  Tyrone Ireland & NSW Australia

Offline aus*jen

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 804
    • View Profile
Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #84 on: Wednesday 21 February 18 08:19 GMT (UK) »
Hello all,   On a suggestion of Macwil I have attempted to achieve a clearer image using my
                camera to photograph the cap badge on the original photo.  Not sure it appears
                much clearer but on the camera viewfinder it is quite clear in closeup.

               I think what we are seeing here is an image similar to the one on Kellybadge.co.uk
               (item F2T 399).  The top section is sails and bows of ships and a ship hull beneath.
               A knowledgeable researcher informs me it is called a Naval Crown.  The National
               Maritime Museum online collections have some pictorial representations of this Naval
               Crown.  Item 2001 indicates that it was a Royal Naval uniform pattern in 1898.

               Buttons.  These were more difficult to photograph, but they have a smooth rim with
               raised centre featuring a raised insignia.

               With the RN Museum reply in mind would anyone comment on the possible
               organizations this cap badge may represent?

Thanks,
Regards,
Jen.
               
Boland   NSW, Australia
Gibbs   S.Aust. & Queensland
Jennings NSW, Australia
Page  Coventry UK, Queensland Aust.
Sellars (Sellard) Gloucestershire
Kirby  Lechlade, Gloucestershire
Hampshire  Stepney, Middlesex & Hampshire
Goddard,  Isle of Wight
Cushen, Isle of Wight
Keys,  Tyrone Ireland & NSW Australia


Offline John915

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,568
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #85 on: Thursday 22 February 18 14:08 GMT (UK) »
Good afternoon,

On the question of the cap badge, rossko57 was fairly certain that it is a tudor crown. That was always my first impression also and in brass not embroidered.

It is far too low on the cap to have anything below it, the chinstrap is only 38 wide so not enough space for anything behind it.

If it is by chance a "naval crown" that rules out RN as they do not use it. They are "Royal" so have either a tudor crown or st edwards crown depending on the monarch.

MN do use the naval crown on their cap badge but over an anchor(no fouling). So that brings us to some civilian maritime organisation, but which. I still prefer some ferry company or similar, possibly on the thames.

John915
Stephens, Fuller, Tedham, Bennett, Ransome (Sussex)
Rider (Fulham)
Stephens (Somerset)
Kentfield (Essex)

Offline aus*jen

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 804
    • View Profile
Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #86 on: Thursday 22 February 18 22:58 GMT (UK) »
Hello John 915,  Thanks for your reply.  At the risk of causing irritation at my ignorance re
                         the composition of a Tudor Crown as opposed to a Naval Crown would you
                         define the difference please?

                         The Maritime Museum collections have examples of a crown used by the RN
                          both metal and embroidered.  These have sails & prows of ships at the top
                          mounted on a band.  The date referred to was 1898.

                         Have looked at the cap badge again in close up and this is possibly what is
                         in the photo but there is a very narrow section under it which appears to be
                         curved downwards.

                         I did have the impression that Rossko57 was non-committal on what the cap
                         badge was. :D  Think he may have retired from this thread.

Regards,
Jen.
Boland   NSW, Australia
Gibbs   S.Aust. & Queensland
Jennings NSW, Australia
Page  Coventry UK, Queensland Aust.
Sellars (Sellard) Gloucestershire
Kirby  Lechlade, Gloucestershire
Hampshire  Stepney, Middlesex & Hampshire
Goddard,  Isle of Wight
Cushen, Isle of Wight
Keys,  Tyrone Ireland & NSW Australia

Offline macwil

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 412
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #87 on: Thursday 22 February 18 23:44 GMT (UK) »
This Royal Fleet Auxiliary cap badge is the nearest likeness I can find.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Royal-Fleet-Auxiliary-military-badge-1205/222844274712?hash=item33e28dc818:g:GYoAAOSw3v5Ym9KF

However, their uniforms appear to use Navy type insignia on the cuffs.
Active links are now (after 13/04/2018) indicated by bold red italics. Just click on them.
The only stupid question is the one not asked

WILSON; Lancs, Lanrks.
BERRY; Lancs.
BORASTON; Salop, Worcs,
TYLER; Salop, Herefords.

Offline aus*jen

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 804
    • View Profile
Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #88 on: Friday 23 February 18 00:40 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Malcolm, that looks very close to the outline on the cap, a good find.  ;D
                         The second curved bar at the bottom could be what I am seeing in the photo.

                         Yes, the cuffs are a conundrum.  There are only 3 possible family members
                         to fit the photo, 2 at Portsmouth Dockyard and 1 Royal Navy.

Regards,
Jen.
Boland   NSW, Australia
Gibbs   S.Aust. & Queensland
Jennings NSW, Australia
Page  Coventry UK, Queensland Aust.
Sellars (Sellard) Gloucestershire
Kirby  Lechlade, Gloucestershire
Hampshire  Stepney, Middlesex & Hampshire
Goddard,  Isle of Wight
Cushen, Isle of Wight
Keys,  Tyrone Ireland & NSW Australia

Offline John915

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,568
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #89 on: Friday 23 February 18 00:47 GMT (UK) »
Good evening,

I can't do any links at the moment Jen so all I can suggest is mr g---------- . Have a look at each of the crowns, naval, tudor and st edwards. The 2nd  detail from each side on the tudor and st edwards crowns are fluer de lis. On the naval crown they are sails, a large square. This not what I see on your picture, I see fluer de lis.

When I say that RN do not use the naval crown I am talking cap badges. They do use it on other applications such as naval heraldry and on the top of a ships jack staff.

When I get to my laptop I will put up some pictures for you.

John915
Stephens, Fuller, Tedham, Bennett, Ransome (Sussex)
Rider (Fulham)
Stephens (Somerset)
Kentfield (Essex)