Author Topic: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin  (Read 5204 times)

Offline aus*jen

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Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #90 on: Friday 23 February 18 01:17 GMT (UK) »
Thankyou John, that is most helpful.  In the meantime I will consult with Mr.G.
Boland   NSW, Australia
Gibbs   S.Aust. & Queensland
Jennings NSW, Australia
Page  Coventry UK, Queensland Aust.
Sellars (Sellard) Gloucestershire
Kirby  Lechlade, Gloucestershire
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Offline John915

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Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #91 on: Friday 23 February 18 16:17 GMT (UK) »
Good afternoon,

On my laptop at last so here are some comparison photo's.

John915
Stephens, Fuller, Tedham, Bennett, Ransome (Sussex)
Rider (Fulham)
Stephens (Somerset)
Kentfield (Essex)

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Offline John915

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Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #92 on: Friday 23 February 18 16:21 GMT (UK) »
Back again,

Now one to show what I see. The colour and apparent shine tell me it is brass and very open in the centre. ie, it doesn't have the material inside showing quite so much as my examples. Excuse the wavy lines, not easy with the mouse, keeps running around  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

John915
Stephens, Fuller, Tedham, Bennett, Ransome (Sussex)
Rider (Fulham)
Stephens (Somerset)
Kentfield (Essex)

Offline aus*jen

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Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #93 on: Saturday 24 February 18 12:15 GMT (UK) »
Hello John915, Thanks so much for the comparison photos and especially your own representation
                       of what you see on the cap.  It is clear now that it is a Tudor Crown.  Online info.
                       indicates that this crown was in use from 1901-1952. 

                      Your time and expertise is much appreciated. ;D

Regards,
Jen.
                         
Boland   NSW, Australia
Gibbs   S.Aust. & Queensland
Jennings NSW, Australia
Page  Coventry UK, Queensland Aust.
Sellars (Sellard) Gloucestershire
Kirby  Lechlade, Gloucestershire
Hampshire  Stepney, Middlesex & Hampshire
Goddard,  Isle of Wight
Cushen, Isle of Wight
Keys,  Tyrone Ireland & NSW Australia

Offline John915

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Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #94 on: Monday 26 February 18 17:03 GMT (UK) »
Good afternoon,

I emailed one of the links given and have now received a reply. A copy is attached so hope it doesn't come out too small to read.

John915

Attachment now removed
Stephens, Fuller, Tedham, Bennett, Ransome (Sussex)
Rider (Fulham)
Stephens (Somerset)
Kentfield (Essex)

Offline aus*jen

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Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #95 on: Monday 26 February 18 21:58 GMT (UK) »
Thanks John915 for posting the email.  I will comment when I have looked more closely at its
content.   


Regards,
Jen.
Boland   NSW, Australia
Gibbs   S.Aust. & Queensland
Jennings NSW, Australia
Page  Coventry UK, Queensland Aust.
Sellars (Sellard) Gloucestershire
Kirby  Lechlade, Gloucestershire
Hampshire  Stepney, Middlesex & Hampshire
Goddard,  Isle of Wight
Cushen, Isle of Wight
Keys,  Tyrone Ireland & NSW Australia

Offline aus*jen

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Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #96 on: Tuesday 27 February 18 10:53 GMT (UK) »
Hello John,   Have read the email from your last post and have some comments re the
                   first paragraph.   You commented in post#41 re the division of 19th century RN
                   officers into the Military Branch consisting of Executive Officers and the Civil Branch
                   which comprised the surgeons, paymasters and instructors.  I wonder if the
                   knowledgeable writer of the email appreciates that division.  Assistant Clerks, Clerks
                   and paymasters were not granted military titles of rank until 1918 nor did they wear
                   the executive curl.  In 1918 they received the oak leaves on the peaked cap that
                   had formerly been the prerogative of the military branch.  As non-Executive Officers
                   they lived in the gunroom with the Gunner and the Boatswain not the wardroom when
                   on board ship.  They wore the 'fore and aft' dress that is what we think of as
                   Officers dress.  The Assistant Clerk's uniform consisted of 8 gilt buttons placed
                   by 2's on the breast of the coat.  Until 1891 the coat was single breasted with a
                   different arrangement of buttons.

               

                   The first para comments " in addition to the cap badge being wrong, the gold buttons
                   in that period would indicate a chief petty officer with badges on the collar and which
                   you would expect to be worn by an older man"   This comment needs amendment,
                   see below:-

                   The 1890 Royal Navy Regulations (see P. Benyon) state that Chief Petty Officers will
                   not wear badges to indicate their rating, which is denoted by their wearing gilt
                   buttons.  Buttons: the crown and anchor buttons of the same pattern as worn by
                   officers except that the crown and anchor is surrounded by a plain rim.
                   The crown is the emblem of Authority, is common with all Petty Officers and
                   Instructors badges and the Police badges.

                   I received a reply from the Maritime Museum Greenwich and the Curator commented
                   thus  "Photos of Royal Hospital School Greenwich are very scarce but I did note
                   in some of the photos that the Masters (Instructors) did wear
                   a cap badge like the one in your picture but the young man in the photo seems
                   younger than an instructor"   The key point here is that Instructors were from the
                   Civil Branch of RN and wore only a crown on the cap.

                   Will comment on the cuffs in a later post.

Boland   NSW, Australia
Gibbs   S.Aust. & Queensland
Jennings NSW, Australia
Page  Coventry UK, Queensland Aust.
Sellars (Sellard) Gloucestershire
Kirby  Lechlade, Gloucestershire
Hampshire  Stepney, Middlesex & Hampshire
Goddard,  Isle of Wight
Cushen, Isle of Wight
Keys,  Tyrone Ireland & NSW Australia

Offline aus*jen

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Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #97 on: Wednesday 28 February 18 08:58 GMT (UK) »
Arr .. but .. there are no RN regulations permitting vertical braid at the cuffs.  (I would guess we are looking at 1897-1910 regs here).  The regs call the usual rings "lace", gold braid to non-tailors like me.  The key thing is every last man in the maritime world knew these were to be applied as rings around the sleeve.]

The vertical embroidery on the distinctive cuffs in the photo has been the subject of much
discussion on this thread.  The comment above dismisses the idea that the uniform in the photo
could be RN because "there are no RN regulations permitting vertical braid at the cuffs"

There are exceptions and they are Royal Navy - RN Warrant Officers who have vertical embroidery
on the cuffs of their uniforms surmounted by 3 buttons at the top of the cuff.  This vertical
embroidery is described in RN regulations as 'buttonholes of Twist below the buttons on the cuff"
(see Godfrey Dykes RN Warrant officers at Dartmouth".  This embellishment was not abolished until
1918. 

I am open minded then about the embroidery on the cuffs and what significance it may have.
--



----
Boland   NSW, Australia
Gibbs   S.Aust. & Queensland
Jennings NSW, Australia
Page  Coventry UK, Queensland Aust.
Sellars (Sellard) Gloucestershire
Kirby  Lechlade, Gloucestershire
Hampshire  Stepney, Middlesex & Hampshire
Goddard,  Isle of Wight
Cushen, Isle of Wight
Keys,  Tyrone Ireland & NSW Australia

Offline aus*jen

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Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
« Reply #98 on: Wednesday 28 February 18 09:55 GMT (UK) »
-Quote by Rosko57

"I'm confident now this photo is NOT the eventual Fleet Paymaster.  To get to those lofty heights, he would have to sign up as Cadet or Assistant Clerk, embryo officers with eight buttons indeed but with collar tabs or cuff ring; nor is the photo any rank in between."
[/quote]




Now that I have looked into the composition of Paymaster's uniforms more thoroughly I have a
comment on the above quote

Yes, an eventual Paymaster did sign up at the Assistant Clerk level via a competitive examination
held half yearly at Greenwich.  The successful candidate was then appointed as an Assistant Clerk
at a shore based establishment (e.g. Victory, the Portsmouth Accounting base) or a sea going ship
where he learned his craft "on the job".  After 1 year's service he was considered eligible to take
the exam for the rating of Clerk and after 3 year's service was eligible for examination for the rating
of assistant paymaster.  Assistant Clerk and Clerk were the equivalent of Naval Cadet and Midshipman. 


Of the many photos I have looked at depicting Paymaster uniforms not one had collar tabs.
Assistant Clerks and Clerks had no rings until they achieved Assistant Paymaster (under 4 years)
when they wore 1 stripe, the equivalent of Sub-Lieutenant.  So looking at our photo we would not
expect to see either of those things.  The jacket is correct, 'fore & aft' dress with 8 gilt buttons
in 2's the buttons having a raised centre with a smooth rim.

It is possible that the uniform in the photo depicts a Navel Cadet on the bottom rung of the ladder
of promotion to Paymaster.  I am open minded as to the possibilities.  With the intricate nature
of RN regulations and the many changes to those regulations who can say with any conviction what
RN uniforms were worn in the Victorian era.

There is a family member who fits the profile of the career of Paymaster.  I have considered
all the possibilities, examined all family members and their careers and only one fits the profile.
The young man in the photo bears a good resemblance to family in other photos I have and also
a good resemblance to his parents' photos.

I have carefully considered all the opinions of posters to this thread, opinions I respect. Thankyou
all for your continued interest and assistance.

Regards,
Jen.
Boland   NSW, Australia
Gibbs   S.Aust. & Queensland
Jennings NSW, Australia
Page  Coventry UK, Queensland Aust.
Sellars (Sellard) Gloucestershire
Kirby  Lechlade, Gloucestershire
Hampshire  Stepney, Middlesex & Hampshire
Goddard,  Isle of Wight
Cushen, Isle of Wight
Keys,  Tyrone Ireland & NSW Australia