Author Topic: Ancestry DNA - How to best use?  (Read 997 times)

Offline Tsu

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Ancestry DNA - How to best use?
« on: Friday 26 January 18 12:55 GMT (UK) »
I'm helping my husband find the biological family of his adopted grandfather.

His grandmother's side of the tree is well researched and there are lots of version of it online.  His maternal grandfather is a complete mystery apart from the name of his birth mother and his date of birth.

He has had an Ancestry DNA test done and I have been slowly working my way through the possible mothers (common name in the place he was born).

I'm now in the position where I have a possible birth mother and a close cousin who is also researching but I haven't managed to persuade her to also take the Ancestry DNA test.

The only match on the tree is for someone who is the '1st cousin of wife of 1st cousin 2x removed' and I can't get my head around whether that makes her related by DNA to the birth mother or not.  If it isn't the birth mother, could it be somehow connected to the birth father (who doesn't appear on the original birth certificate).

I really need a second pair of eyes on this.  Can any clear-headed person assist?
East London:
Happe/Hoppe (St. Georges in the East)
Stanley (middle name Thurston)
Rondeau (Spitalfields and Salford)
Jones (Bishopsgate - Thomas, Ostrich Feather Manufacturer)
Wood (London City)
McDermott (Londonderry and Stepney)
Upcraft (Bethnal Green)
Chidgey (Shoredtich)
Grim (Bethnal Green)
Row (Mast makers in Wapping)
Spurden (Stepney and Pancras)
Glibbery (Bishopsgate)

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Offline Tsu

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Re: Ancestry DNA - How to best use?
« Reply #1 on: Friday 26 January 18 13:00 GMT (UK) »
Here's what the distant cousin said (names redacted):

Here's how I'm related, broken down (literally just copied and pasted)

Margaret E P (my husband's assumed great grandmother) (1887 - 1925 )
1st cousin of wife of 1st cousin 2x removed

James P (1853 - 1906)
father of Margaret E P

William P (1813 - )
father of James P

David P (1850 - 1940)
son of William P

Jane Elisabeth P (1879 - 1968)
daughter of David P

Cadwaladr J (1880 - 1959)
husband of Jane Elisabeth P

Mary H (1848 - )
mother of Cadwaladr J

Hugh H (1822 - 1898)
father of Mary H

Hugh H (1853 - 1912)
son of Hugh H

Catherine H (1886 - 1944)
daughter of Hugh H

Norah N (1920 - 1998)
daughter of Catherine H

You are the daughter of Norah N


See what I mean?

The area they are all born and lived in is a smallish area of north Wales (if it helps).
East London:
Happe/Hoppe (St. Georges in the East)
Stanley (middle name Thurston)
Rondeau (Spitalfields and Salford)
Jones (Bishopsgate - Thomas, Ostrich Feather Manufacturer)
Wood (London City)
McDermott (Londonderry and Stepney)
Upcraft (Bethnal Green)
Chidgey (Shoredtich)
Grim (Bethnal Green)
Row (Mast makers in Wapping)
Spurden (Stepney and Pancras)
Glibbery (Bishopsgate)

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Offline Eric Hatfield

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Re: Ancestry DNA - How to best use?
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 28 January 18 03:08 GMT (UK) »
Hi Tsu,

I'm not sure if I understand your question, but I have had a look at the family tree information you have given and drawn up a family tree.

I don't know how well I can draw up the tree here, but, if I've got it right, there are two lines of descent, each with two branches, like this:

          William P                                           Hugh H
             |        |                                             |           |
James P      David P                          Mary H         Hugh H
     |                   |                                 |                         |
Marg EP        Jane P ------------ J Cadwaladr          Cath H
                                                                                    |
                                                                                Norah H
                                                                                    |
                                                                                 "You" - I presume this means your husband.

Now it is clear, if that diagram is correct, that there is no DNA in common between Marg EP and "you" - the only connection between the two lines is by marriage (J Cadwaladr & Jane P). If there is actually a match, there must be a connection not shown, probably further back.

I don't know if that helps. Have I understood the family tree and the question?

Offline GailB

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Re: Ancestry DNA - How to best use?
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 28 January 18 05:01 GMT (UK) »
Hi

Eric I think you have drawn the tree correctly. I take it all to mean that Catherine H's husband, who was adopted, was the son of Margaret EP? I think
Armitage, Atherton, Barton, Beck, Bradshaw, Brumfitt, Chetwin, Conalty, Connolly, Connor(s), Davidson, Hilton, Hoey, Johnson, Jones, Knight, Lester, McDonald, Molyneux, Morris, Pownall, Rushton, Spark, Stanley, Tunstall, Welsby, West, Wharton, Williams, Wilson, Windridge, Windstandley

Offline Tsu

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Re: Ancestry DNA - How to best use?
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 28 January 18 10:24 GMT (UK) »
Thank you both.

Margaret E P was the mother of my husband's adopted grandfather.  The daughter of Norah H is the DNA match on Ancestry that I have been in contact with.  She is showing as being related by DNA to my husband.

It's odd that Margaret E P is on her tree if they're not related but that must mean that Norah's daughter is related to the as yet unidentified father of his grandfather, which is exciting.  I just have to work out who.
East London:
Happe/Hoppe (St. Georges in the East)
Stanley (middle name Thurston)
Rondeau (Spitalfields and Salford)
Jones (Bishopsgate - Thomas, Ostrich Feather Manufacturer)
Wood (London City)
McDermott (Londonderry and Stepney)
Upcraft (Bethnal Green)
Chidgey (Shoredtich)
Grim (Bethnal Green)
Row (Mast makers in Wapping)
Spurden (Stepney and Pancras)
Glibbery (Bishopsgate)

Offline GailB

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Re: Ancestry DNA - How to best use?
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 28 January 18 10:29 GMT (UK) »
Hi Tsu, DNA is way over the top of my head at present and have been reading as many forums as I can, and I hope to improve on it all. I have ordered a kit through Ancestry which according to the delivery tracker, is due to arrive on Thursday.
Armitage, Atherton, Barton, Beck, Bradshaw, Brumfitt, Chetwin, Conalty, Connolly, Connor(s), Davidson, Hilton, Hoey, Johnson, Jones, Knight, Lester, McDonald, Molyneux, Morris, Pownall, Rushton, Spark, Stanley, Tunstall, Welsby, West, Wharton, Williams, Wilson, Windridge, Windstandley

Offline Eric Hatfield

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Re: Ancestry DNA - How to best use?
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 31 January 18 01:24 GMT (UK) »
Hi Tsu,

The information you are giving us isnít quite clear to me yet. Do you mind if I clarify?

Assuming I have drawn the tree correctly, we can now add your husbandís adopted grandfather as the daughter of Marg EP, and the daughter of Norah we can now show as your husbandís match.

Now when you say ďhusbandís adopted grandfatherĒ (letís call him X), do you mean X was adopted by Marg EP, or that X was the son of Marg EP and he adopted your husbandís father? Whichever way, I think it means that Marg EP is not related biologically to your husband, is that correct?

If I have understood all this correctly (and it is quite complex, so I may not), then your husband must be related biologically to the H family, and adopted into the P family, which I think is what you are saying in your last paragraph.

It could be that someone in the H family had a child outside of marriage, and that child was adopted by the P family because they were connected by marriage. If this is so, it seems that your task is to estimate the number of generations back to the common ancestor between your husband and his match.

I donít think I am telling you anything new, just working out for myself, but  hopefully it may help confirm your thinking.

You donít say what is the estimated match relationship but that will give you an idea of how far back you need to go - if an nth cousin than it will be n+1 generations back to the common ancestor.  From the tree I have drawn, it seems the match is one generation further back than your husband. So, for example, if the match is 4th cousin, then it will be 5 generations back approximately - maybe 5 on the match's side and 6 on your husband's, or 5 on your husband's and 4 on the match's. That means that someone in your tree (Hugh H senior) may be the common ancestor, or maybe his parents. So that tells you where to start, by looking at children and grandchildren of the common ancestor.

I hope that helps.

Offline Tsu

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Re: Ancestry DNA - How to best use?
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 01 February 18 10:11 GMT (UK) »
Hi Tsu,

The information you are giving us isnít quite clear to me yet. Do you mind if I clarify? Not at all

Assuming I have drawn the tree correctly, we can now add your husbandís adopted grandfather as the daughter of Marg EP, and the daughter of Norah we can now show as your husbandís match. Yes, my husband's grandfather is the son of Margaret EP and Norah's daughter is my husband's Ancestry match.

Now when you say ďhusbandís adopted grandfatherĒ (letís call him X), do you mean X was adopted by Marg EP, or that X was the son of Marg EP and he adopted your husbandís father? Whichever way, I think it means that Marg EP is not related biologically to your husband, is that correct? Husband's grandfather was given up for adoption by Margaret EP.  Margaret was his biological mother.  The father's name is blank on the original birth certificate.

If I have understood all this correctly (and it is quite complex, so I may not), then your husband must be related biologically to the H family, and adopted into the P family, which I think is what you are saying in your last paragraph.

It could be that someone in the H family had a child outside of marriage, and that child was adopted by the P family because they were connected by marriage. If this is so, it seems that your task is to estimate the number of generations back to the common ancestor between your husband and his match.

I donít think I am telling you anything new, just working out for myself, but  hopefully it may help confirm your thinking.

You donít say what is the estimated match relationship but that will give you an idea of how far back you need to go - if an nth cousin than it will be n+1 generations back to the common ancestor.  From the tree I have drawn, it seems the match is one generation further back than your husband. So, for example, if the match is 4th cousin, then it will be 5 generations back approximately - maybe 5 on the match's side and 6 on your husband's, or 5 on your husband's and 4 on the match's. That means that someone in your tree (Hugh H senior) may be the common ancestor, or maybe his parents. So that tells you where to start, by looking at children and grandchildren of the common ancestor.

I hope that helps.

The match shows as a high confidence 4th - 6th cousin.
East London:
Happe/Hoppe (St. Georges in the East)
Stanley (middle name Thurston)
Rondeau (Spitalfields and Salford)
Jones (Bishopsgate - Thomas, Ostrich Feather Manufacturer)
Wood (London City)
McDermott (Londonderry and Stepney)
Upcraft (Bethnal Green)
Chidgey (Shoredtich)
Grim (Bethnal Green)
Row (Mast makers in Wapping)
Spurden (Stepney and Pancras)
Glibbery (Bishopsgate)

Offline mike175

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Re: Ancestry DNA - How to best use?
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 01 February 18 13:08 GMT (UK) »
Intrigued by your problem, I have modified Eric's chart from the further details you gave. If I understood them correctly, there appears to be no blood relationship between your husband and the DNA match through the names shown here. But of course there are many people missing from the chart who may make the blood connection.

Mike.
Baskervill - Devon, Foss - Hants, Gentry - Essex, Metherell - Devon, Partridge - Essex/London, Press - Norfolk/London, Stone - Surrey/Sussex, Stuttle - Essex/London, Wheate - Middlesex/Essex/Coventry/Oxfordshire/Staffs, Gibson - Essex, Wyatt - Essex/Kent