Author Topic: Can anyone help with translation of a document in German?  (Read 581 times)

Offline alistquin

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Can anyone help with translation of a document in German?
« on: Friday 26 January 18 14:01 GMT (UK) »
I wrote to a gentleman in Germany on the off chance he might be able to help me with information on the Kuss family from Furtwangen in the Black Forest and in particular one German Kuss, and WoW, did he!
He sent me lots of information, most of which I can slowly translate, but he included a couple of original documents from the 1850s and 1890s, which are quite beyond me. The Gothic script I can't read and the handwriting...... well!
I'll post the first and longest and hope that someone out there fancies having a go at a little more than 'deciphering'.   ;D

Alistair
Quinlan - Glasgow & Ireland + married Hogbin, Best & King, Australia
Winton - Angus
Joyce - Westport, County Mayo, Ireland
Aitkin/Aitken - Roxburghshire, Selkirkshire, Co. Galway, Australia
Taylor - County Tyrone, Skibereen, Loughrea, Liverpool, Beccles
Higgins, Ryan and Kelly - Athenry
White - Clara, Kings County/County Offally
Law - Ayrshire, Argyllshire
Orr - Ayrshire, County Antrim, Australia
Burnett - Kincardineshire, Angus, Clydebank
Carnegie - Kincardineshire

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Offline Karen McDonald

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Re: Can anyone help with translation of a document in German?
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 28 January 18 13:01 GMT (UK) »
Hi Alistair,

I’ve only just discovered your post, for some reason.

I can read most of the printed bits, but the handwriting is waaaaay over my head…  ??? Maybe one of the experts here (e.g. JustinL, davecapps) can help with that. I’m a bit limited on time at the moment, but I’ll try and give you an idea of what’s going on here.

The document (Auszug aus dem Grundbuche) is an excerpt from the land registry from the parish of (Schönenbach?). I’m not 100% sure about the name, but it could fit and there is a Schönenbach a couple of km East of Furtwangen.

Again, due to the handwriting, I’m not sure about the date: Could it be 2ten Mai 1865?

Anyway:

Geschehen zu (Schönenbach) am (2ten) Mai 1865
vor unterzeichneten Gerichtsleuten.

The event took place on (2nd) May 1865, before the undersigned court officials.

The following property was sold:
(I can make neither head nor tail of the handwriting, apart from being able to decipher “Kuss” in 2 places. X sold a property to Y, but exactly who did what is beyond my abilities, I’m afraid.)

The second (handwritten) scan is, I believe, “Bedingungen” (Terms/Conditions)

The third scan is:
Kauf-Bedingungen und andere Neben-Erfordernisse
in
Fragen und Antworten

(Conditions of Purchase and other Additional Requirements in Questions and Answers)

Questions:
1. When is the Hausschilling to be paid? With or without interest?
(Hausschilling appears to be some kind of payment to the local vicar for the upkeep of a building. Maybe someone else can help us further with that..?!)

2. Wird das Gütermaas gewährt?
(?) Gütermasse could be mass of commodities. Is the mass of commodities to be granted? Sounds rather weird. A bit over my head…

3. Has the purchaser adopted other guarantees/safeguarding in addition to the declared basic encumbrances, which may now or in future (affect?) the object of purchase?
(They use “sich erfinden”, which today would be “invent (oneself)”. I can only assume it means something like “affect”.)

4. Who is responsible for the purchase costs? (Wer leidet die Kauf-Kosten? Simply beautiful.  :D)

5. Which other conditions were also affected?

6. Under which day and number were the involved guardians/carers or advisers obligated?

7. Under which day and number is the, where applicable, required official authorisation or empowerment issued?

8. (Asks whether mortgages, etc. are outstanding on the sold property.) To whom? For how much capital and interest? How will the creditor be satisfied?

(Scan 4)
9. Does the property not belong to an entailment or inheritance stock? Did the seller not acquire (the property) under causal conditions?

10. Has the Hausschilling been entered in the land registry or mortgage book?

11. Was freedom from excise made use of, either in part or whole, and for what reason?

The next part says that
Both parties pledge to uphold the contract and the city court has obligated them to ensure that the answers 6 to 11 are truthful.

Read aloud, authorised and signed by

The District Council               The Seller

                     The Purchaser       

Lower left is a field covering the costs.
Lower right is the decision/resolution field for the officials (court).


I hope this helps a little!
Let’s see if anyone can help with the handwriting…

Best regards,
Karen

McDonald MacDonald M'Donald McGregor MacGregor M'Gregor Twilley Wells Fentiman Carrington Rowe Needham Mitchell Mackie Collingwood Fuller Maides Shilton Hagon Budd

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Offline alistquin

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Re: Can anyone help with translation of a document in German?
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 28 January 18 14:39 GMT (UK) »
Cheers Karen, thank you for that.  ;D ;D

I wasn't quite sure what to expect, maybe clocks being bought and sold, but certainly not property.

The man who sent it to me added a little note to it which states -

Der Verkaufer : German Kuss Rotenbauer in Schonenbach
Der Kaufer : German Kuss Uhrenhandler in England

The seller: German Kuss Rotenbauer in Schonenbach
The buyer: German Kuss watch dealers in England

German Kuss arrived in the UK in the early 1840s from Schonenbach near Furtwangen with the intention of setting up a clock related business. He was in a partnership in Hull for a short time then moved to Newcastle where he started his own business in 1848, which he left to two of his sons, who sold it about 1902.

The relevance of 1865 escapes me, but he was obviously still in England.

If anyone else can add to Karen's information it would be most appreciated.

Alistair
Quinlan - Glasgow & Ireland + married Hogbin, Best & King, Australia
Winton - Angus
Joyce - Westport, County Mayo, Ireland
Aitkin/Aitken - Roxburghshire, Selkirkshire, Co. Galway, Australia
Taylor - County Tyrone, Skibereen, Loughrea, Liverpool, Beccles
Higgins, Ryan and Kelly - Athenry
White - Clara, Kings County/County Offally
Law - Ayrshire, Argyllshire
Orr - Ayrshire, County Antrim, Australia
Burnett - Kincardineshire, Angus, Clydebank
Carnegie - Kincardineshire

Offline Karen McDonald

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Re: Can anyone help with translation of a document in German?
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 28 January 18 15:13 GMT (UK) »
Hi Alistair,

Maybe they were father and son?

I have no idea what "Rotenbauer" could mean.  ???

This is all very interesting!  :)

Karen
McDonald MacDonald M'Donald McGregor MacGregor M'Gregor Twilley Wells Fentiman Carrington Rowe Needham Mitchell Mackie Collingwood Fuller Maides Shilton Hagon Budd

Offline Peonie

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Re: Can anyone help with translation of a document in German?
« Reply #4 on: Monday 29 January 18 01:53 GMT (UK) »
Most farms have names, in this case "Rotenhof", so it's "Rotenbauer".

If you google Josef Kuss you will find a house which is supposed to be the Rotenhof.

Regards Peonie


added: there is a transcript of your posting on the Europe forum.

Offline Karen McDonald

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Re: Can anyone help with translation of a document in German?
« Reply #5 on: Monday 29 January 18 08:30 GMT (UK) »
Hi Peonie,

Most farms have names, in this case "Rotenhof", so it's "Rotenbauer".
If you google Josef Kuss you will find a house which is supposed to be the Rotenhof.

I couldn't make out "Rotenhof".  :)

I have no idea how Google actually works, but if I google Josef Kuss from here (N. Germany), I get lots of links to a Josef Kuss, Vizebürgermeister in Mariazell, Austria, but nothing else. The German 'phone book has no Josef Kusses. Even if I type in Josef Kuss Rotenhof, nothing comes up...  ???

Quote from: Peonie
added: there is a transcript of your posting on the Europe forum.
I thought we weren't supposed to put threads in multiple forums... :-\

Thanks,
Karen
McDonald MacDonald M'Donald McGregor MacGregor M'Gregor Twilley Wells Fentiman Carrington Rowe Needham Mitchell Mackie Collingwood Fuller Maides Shilton Hagon Budd

Offline alistquin

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Re: Can anyone help with translation of a document in German?
« Reply #6 on: Monday 29 January 18 10:48 GMT (UK) »
Thank you again Karen and thanks also to you Peonie.   ;D ;D

The name of a farm makes sense from what I already know and the sale of some fields matches.

What puzzled me is that it is the same person who is the buyer and seller, notwithstanding the buyer is might actually be his business in England. Perhaps it's just because his funds are in two different jurisdictions and he wants to keep them separate?

Josef Kuss was German's father. When I Google Josef Kuss from south-east England, I don't get any reference to Rotenhof or Rotenbauer.

Alistair
Quinlan - Glasgow & Ireland + married Hogbin, Best & King, Australia
Winton - Angus
Joyce - Westport, County Mayo, Ireland
Aitkin/Aitken - Roxburghshire, Selkirkshire, Co. Galway, Australia
Taylor - County Tyrone, Skibereen, Loughrea, Liverpool, Beccles
Higgins, Ryan and Kelly - Athenry
White - Clara, Kings County/County Offally
Law - Ayrshire, Argyllshire
Orr - Ayrshire, County Antrim, Australia
Burnett - Kincardineshire, Angus, Clydebank
Carnegie - Kincardineshire

Offline Peonie

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Re: Can anyone help with translation of a document in German?
« Reply #7 on: Monday 29 January 18 12:56 GMT (UK) »
Hi Karen and Alistair,

no idea how google works. Yesterday google.de brought up trees from different genealogical sites and also pinterest. All I put in was German Kuß Schönenbach and it all came up. Today - nothing usable.

Perhaps this works. https://gw.geneanet.org/koppler?n=kusz&oc=&p=german

Dold FamilyGenealogy (Furtwangen, Baden, Germany) - Rootsweb
wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op...Kuss%2C... - Translate this page
Mar 27, 2007 - KUSS, Felix b: in Schönenbach-"Sonne" KUSS, Felix b: 1811 in Schönenbach-Rotenbauernhof d: 1890 in Schönenbach-"Sonne" KUSS, Genovefa b: 1814. KUSS, Georg b: ABT. 1672 in Furtwangen (Kussenhof) d: 4 AUG 1751 in Furtwangen - Dorf KUSS, German b: 1805. KUSS, Gertrud b: 1797. KUSS ...

14 best Kuss Family Search images on Pinterest | Family search ...
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/MBroughtonArt/kuss-family-search/

My great grandfather came to England, along with some brothers and sister(s) from the Black Forest in Germany. They settled here and had families. I am trying to find the descendants of his siblings. I have photos of some of them but I don't know who they are! As an artist I'm going to develop a body of work regarding my ...

Hope you can work something out from here.

According to the trees there are two German, one born 1805 and his son born 1841, the elder has father Anton. Looks there are a lot of siblings around who all used the same names.

Regards Peonie

Offline alistquin

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Re: Can anyone help with translation of a document in German?
« Reply #8 on: Monday 29 January 18 13:22 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for digging further Peonie.  ;D

The Pintrest images were put there by us a few years ago when we knew less than we know now.

There were several Kuss families living in the same area, and oddly enough more than one were clock and watch makers. Two of those families had a German, one born in 1805 and the other in 1815. The 1815 one is the one of interest.

The gentleman in Furtwangen who provided me with the scanned document also sent lots of other information, most of which I can at least feed (slowly) into Google Translate, so it may open a few doors.  :)

Alistair
Quinlan - Glasgow & Ireland + married Hogbin, Best & King, Australia
Winton - Angus
Joyce - Westport, County Mayo, Ireland
Aitkin/Aitken - Roxburghshire, Selkirkshire, Co. Galway, Australia
Taylor - County Tyrone, Skibereen, Loughrea, Liverpool, Beccles
Higgins, Ryan and Kelly - Athenry
White - Clara, Kings County/County Offally
Law - Ayrshire, Argyllshire
Orr - Ayrshire, County Antrim, Australia
Burnett - Kincardineshire, Angus, Clydebank
Carnegie - Kincardineshire