Author Topic: John Black Quarter Master Sergeant Royal Sappers and Miners  (Read 626 times)

Online ShaunJ

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Re: John Black Quarter Master Sergeant Royal Sappers and Miners
« Reply #9 on: Friday 02 February 18 10:50 GMT (UK) »
I searched in the "India Office Army & Navy Pensions" dataset
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Offline didowells

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Re: John Black Quarter Master Sergeant Royal Sappers and Miners
« Reply #10 on: Friday 02 February 18 11:23 GMT (UK) »
Shaun

Found them both thank you very much.
Wells, Oxford, Watson, Denn: Kent & Sheffield
Crowther, Bower, Slater, Bramley, Baxter, Quarmby, Craven, Shaw, Thornley: W Yorks
Wilkinson, Hyson/Ison: Derbyshire
Tomlinson, Wilson, Coward, Lockwood: Nottinghamshire
Black, Mason: Hampshire

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Online ShaunJ

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Re: John Black Quarter Master Sergeant Royal Sappers and Miners
« Reply #11 on: Friday 02 February 18 11:51 GMT (UK) »
The HEIC pension is quite puzzling. John Black must have worked for the Honourable East India Company after his discharge from the Army.

Per the British Library website:  The Lord Clive Fund ..provided benefits for European officers and other ranks of the East India Company and Indian Army and their widows but not their children. Founded c1770, last pensioner admitted c1885. Fund registers in series L/AG/23/2, payment books mainly in series L/AG/21/10. These were 'ex gratia' pensions, awarded on a charitable basis and not as of right; there were no subscriptions to the Fund. The records relate mainly to payments made in the UK. There is a modern index showing widows admitted to pension in the UK between 1769 and 1885.
http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelpregion/asia/india/indiaofficerecordsfamilyhistory/pension/pensions.html
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Online MaxD

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Re: John Black Quarter Master Sergeant Royal Sappers and Miners
« Reply #12 on: Friday 02 February 18 14:55 GMT (UK) »
I was struggling with finding info about this at the NA but I found references like this that made me think that "sappers and miners" were connected to the Royal Artillery in the records :-\
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3763766

The explanation for this reference apparently putting him in the Royal Artillery is that in the title "Royal Artillery, Sappers and Miners" should read "Royal Artillery and Sappers and Miners".  It is a register of the claims of men of the two regiments for medals relating to the Peninsular War. 

You may wish to download the document for free and search for him among the Sappers and Miners just in case he served in that war.

The other NA link is quite clearly to WO 69 which covers Royal Artillery personnel and the service of a John Black at the same time is simply a coincidence.  Sappers and Miners had their own set of pensions documents.
I would discount the perceived link with the Royal Artillery.

MaxD
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Offline Daisypetal

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Re: John Black Quarter Master Sergeant Royal Sappers and Miners
« Reply #13 on: Friday 02 February 18 17:36 GMT (UK) »

Thank you MaxD for finding an explanation about the NA ref.i found, I was going round in circles  :)

I don't think that John appear would appear in it as image 2 mentions "claiming Medals under the General Order dated 1st June 18147" I think it is images of this medal list,

https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/medals/military-general-service-medal

John died in 1829.


But I think that the idea of John BLACK serving in the Peninsular War is a good possibility, it might explain why there is a gap in the children's births between 1808 to 1815. I wonder if Ann went with him and had other children abroad?


Do you know where the Sappers and Miners pension records are? The nearest thing I can see is the "War Office and predecessors: Engineers Muster Books and Pay Lists" which refers to the "The Royal Corps of Sappers and Miners," bit seems to be a huge amount of different regiments and companies etc. I have no idea how to search it to find John BLACK or if that is even possible without going to the NA :-\



If John worked for the East India Company after leaving the British Army couldn't he receive his Army pension when he left?


You sound more knowledgeable about military records that I am, I'm on a steep learning curve ;D

The John BLACK with the Royal Artillery record could easily be a different one but my curiosity would make me check   :)


Regards,
Daisy
All Census Data included in this post is Crown Copyright (see: www.nationalarchives.gov.uk)

Offline Daisypetal

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Re: John Black Quarter Master Sergeant Royal Sappers and Miners
« Reply #14 on: Friday 02 February 18 17:56 GMT (UK) »


Oops, sorry Di, I forgot to explain how you would do a look up :-[


If you still wanted to order thee John Black Royal Artillery records you click "Request a copy" on the right of the page,

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14440594


I haven't done this method of ordering from the NA before so I can only suggest that you read all the instructions carefully and then when they email you with the "full breakdown of the cost of copying the record" decide if you think it's worth it, but you will have to pay the 8.40 for them to check if they can find it.

It feels like ordering a BMD certificate when you are not 100% sure it's the right one ::)  :)

I'm also getting out of my depth the further into the military records I go  :)



Please don't ever feel that you are asking too many questions, there are always people here who are happy to try and answer :) 


Daisy
All Census Data included in this post is Crown Copyright (see: www.nationalarchives.gov.uk)

Online MaxD

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Re: John Black Quarter Master Sergeant Royal Sappers and Miners
« Reply #15 on: Friday 02 February 18 20:41 GMT (UK) »
Indeed, the army order of 1847 was an invitation for artillerymen and engineers to claim medals for the Peninsular war and as he died in 1829 then he wouldn't appear on the list at all. 

The Royal Artillery John Black served with the RA for the same years so he can't surely be the same man serving those years as a Sapper and Miner!

Army pension records are not separated out to regiments and corps except for the Royal Artillery who, as always, did things differently!  Best to read the National Archives guide to cover all the places that may or may not have QMS John Black Sappers and Miners in them.http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-soldiers-up-to-1913/
MaxD
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Offline didowells

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Re: John Black Quarter Master Sergeant Royal Sappers and Miners
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 03 February 18 16:29 GMT (UK) »
I would just like to thank everyone for their efforts regarding my John Black.  I hope in time to sort through all the links and make a time line.  Whether I shall ever discover where he came from I do not know :P
Wells, Oxford, Watson, Denn: Kent & Sheffield
Crowther, Bower, Slater, Bramley, Baxter, Quarmby, Craven, Shaw, Thornley: W Yorks
Wilkinson, Hyson/Ison: Derbyshire
Tomlinson, Wilson, Coward, Lockwood: Nottinghamshire
Black, Mason: Hampshire