Author Topic: Looking for the mother of Caroline Krammer  (Read 935 times)

Offline ghostnorris

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Looking for the mother of Caroline Krammer
« on: Saturday 10 February 18 05:13 GMT (UK) »
She was born Caroline Kramer or Lisette Caroline Kramer (although the only place Lisette is ever used is in the birth index), in Keighley in December 1854, and married as Caroline Krammer, daughter of Louis Krammer, a pork butcher, in Birstall in 1876, to William Broscomb(e). I managed to find what's probably her father in the 1851 census living in Sheffield as Louis Kramer, born in Germany, 1830, occupation journeyman pork butcher. He married a Rose Lair in 1854 as Ludwig Kramer, in Bradford. Rose Lair is Caroline's mother. However, I can't find them on any census as a family, nor can I find Rose anywhere at all. Lair doesn't exist as a surname in Britain and is possibly a spelling error of Lehr, meaning she is also probably German, but when I search for German-born Roses, I don't get much.

One strange lead I found is the Limbach/Limback family. I'll bold the similarities. In 1861, there is a Louis Limbach living in Hull with his wife, with the initials R M. His profession is pork butcher. Two of his children were born in Bradford. There is, however, no Caroline. In 1871 a Limback family is living in Bradford, yet the head's name is George, a shoemaker, but the wife is Rose. A couple of their children were born in Hull, yet there is no Leonard (possibly dead?) and no Caroline. Their daughter, Catherine, was born around the same time as Caroline, give or take, but she was born in Germany, after Caroline's parents were already in England.

Could they be the same people who liked to change their names a lot, including from Louis to George, from Caroline to Catherine and then back to Caroline again, and changing the patriarch's life-long (and ancestral, since his father, too, was a pork butcher) occupation to something completely different in the space of ten years?

Offline crisane

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Re: Looking for the mother of Caroline Krammer
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 10 February 18 05:20 GMT (UK) »
Another spelling of the mother's surname
GRO index
birth reg
KRAMER, Lisette Caroline  mmn     LEHER        
March 1/4 1855  KEIGHLEY  Volume 9a  Page 153

Offline amondg

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Re: Looking for the mother of Caroline Krammer
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 10 February 18 07:47 GMT (UK) »
Local directories.
1839 Christian Kramer, 1 Pinstone Street Sheffield Pork Butcher
        Frederic Kramer, 82 Burgess Street, Sheffield Pork Butcher

1857 through 1862 Charles Kramer at 6 Pinstone Street Pork Butcher

1856
Frederic Kramer 46 Manchester Street Bradford. Pork Butcher

What is the address on Lisette Caroline Kramer' birth certificate?

 

Offline amondg

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Re: Looking for the mother of Caroline Krammer
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 10 February 18 08:21 GMT (UK) »
When Ludwig Kramer married Rose Lair, his father was Frederick Kramer, Pork Butcher.
Her father Christopher Lair, Mason.

So could the Frederick Kramer of 82 Burgess Street be his father?
The Frederick of 48 Manchester Road Bradford is also a candidate for either father or brother.


Offline ciderdrinker

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Re: Looking for the mother of Caroline Krammer
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 10 February 18 13:13 GMT (UK) »
Hello
Here's her christening 28.1.1855 Keighley
Caroline Kramer born 7.12 1854 d of Lewis and Rosa High St pork butcher.

The marriage you found gives Bride and groom as both 25.And as you know their address is just Bradford.

There are no other children up to 1871.

The Frederick Kramer born 1813  in Manchester Rd is unmarried and living with his sister Catherine born 1824  in 1851.
Her marriage in 1852 gives a father Anthony Kramer inn keeper.

Also in 1851 is Frederick Framer born 1811 Germany pork butcher ,wife Maria (latter censuses Marrianne) 36 born Westminster at 73 Broomhall st Eccelesall.

It looks as though they married at Doncaster 17.6.1845
Frederick bach pork butcher Cleveland St s of Christian cattle dealer
Mary Ann Ebert spinst Cleveland St d of Christian pork butcher

wit Elizabeth and Christian Kramer

But it's weird that Frederick was a bachelor at 35 if it is them.
He's in Derbyshire 1841.

1841 Pinstone St Sheffield
Christian Kramer 35 pork butcher Foreign parts
Elizabeth  35 N
Christian 10  y
Caroline 9
Elizabeth 8
Catherine 7
Louisa 6
Emily 5
George 2
Frederick 6 mths
and 3 servants

The wife was a Miss Ross.They married 5.5.1830 at Sheffield Cathedral

also 1841 is an Augustus Kramer 19 journeyman f with George and Elizabeth  Hiller prok butcher both 20 F and y Barker's pool which might fit with the 1851 census for Louis  with the other Hillers.
Charles Kramer  20  union st pork butcher foreign.
He turns out on his marriage in 2.7.1843 to Charlotte Capewell to be son of Christian Kramer victualler

Which doesn't really help.

Ciderdrinker