Author Topic: Police Constable - unable to verify - *clarifications added*  (Read 529 times)

Offline swerley

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Police Constable - unable to verify - *clarifications added*
« on: Sunday 11 February 18 12:38 GMT (UK) »
Iíve been looking for many years for the father of John Mitchell Williams. What I know is John was born 2 Oct 1845 in Ireland. On his marriage register, both of his parents are shown as deceased. His father was either James or Thomas Williams (difficult to read first name) and occupation was police constable. Johnís mother was Mary Jane Pollock. John is found in the 1861 Scotland census living with Pollock relatives in Cambusnethan, Lanarkshire. The family seemed to have moved back and forth between Scotland and Ireland, presumably to find work. I canít be certain where Johnís father was a police constable - Ireland or Scotland. I tried to find him in the RIC, but none of the Williams listed panned out, so Iím thinking maybe a local barracks?

Any help at all would be greatly appreciated, as Iíve been stuck here for probably close to 15 years.

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Offline aghadowey

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Re: Police Constable - unable to verify
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 11 February 18 13:16 GMT (UK) »
On his marriage register, both of his parents are shown as deceased. His father was either James or Thomas Williams (difficult to read first name) and occupation was police constable. Johnís mother was Mary Jane Pollock.

When and where did marriage take place?

You've posted in Derry/Londonderry without saying what the connection is to the county. Do you have a more exact location there?

Irish policemen were usually posted in a different county to their birth and if they married a different county from where their wife was from.

Added- looks like marriage was 1866, possibly in Scotland?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=641658.msg4885302#msg4885302

AND a previous topic from 2013  :-\
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=641115.msg4879915#msg4879915
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Offline swerley

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Re: Police Constable - unable to verify
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 11 February 18 13:35 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for taking the time to read my plea.

The post you linked refers to JOHNís marriage in Scotland, not his parents marriage in Ireland.

I had paid a researcher to look for Johnís birth several years ago. They came up with Williams - no first name given - of Listress and Mary POLKE of Glendermott marriage in Cumber Lower Church of Ireland Church, Diocese of Derry, County Londonderry on 22 Nov 1825.

Also, they found baptisms of David, son of James Williams and Mary Poke on 9 Apr 1830 in Glendermott Church of Ireland Church, and John, son of James Williams and Mary Pollock on 24 Oct 1834 in Cumber Lower Church of Ireland Church.

And, as you say, Royal Irish Constabularies were held to some very strict rules, such as: must be single for 7 years (I think), which eliminates my ancestor. All of the Williamsís were either single or served after my Williams would have been deceased. Thatís why I thought maybe a local police constable rather than the RIC.

I have tried to find this man over the years, on this forum as well as many, many others. The posts you linked above are all still valid and still not solved. Iím really stumped and getting frustrated. Maybe there is no answer.

I was skeptical because John was Presbyterian as an adult, but I guess he might have changed religions. Also, he was born in 1845, not 1834, but if a child dies itís not uncommon for the family to reuse the name - particularly if theyíre trying to preserve the name. It was likely one of his grandfatherís names that they wished to pass on.

Thanks again for your interest.

Offline shanreagh

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Re: Police Constable - unable to verify - *clarifications added*
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 14 February 18 09:11 GMT (UK) »
In one of the earlier threads you advise that John M Williams is living in Scotland with his mother's Pollock family.  How have you verified this? How have you verified that the date of birth for John is in 1845 rather than the 1834 one? How old is his bride?   Do you know where the Mitchell name comes from? Do you know the earliest time he was in Scotland presumably the 1861 census from 7/4/1861 ? What is his age in that census?  I cannot seem to locate him there..yet.

I like to be able to replicate the knowledge you have given so I can check other sources. 

Have you had the 'decipherers' on Rootschat look at the marriage record to see if they read the father's name as Thomas or James?

This looks like the 1834 Cumber birth
 (on Family Search)

James Williams
mentioned in the record of John Williams
Name    James Williams
gender   Male
Wife    Mary Pollock
Son    John Williams
Other information in the record of John Williams
from Ireland Births and Baptisms
Name    John Williams
Gender    Male
Christening Date    24 Oct 1834
Christening Place    LOWER CUMBER,LONDONDERRY,IRELAND
Father's Name    James Williams
Mother's Name    Mary Pollock

Just a comment about the COI and Presbyterian issue.  One part of my Limavady family is adamantly Presbyterian.  It did not stop him from:
a) marrying in COI church
B) baptising all his children in COI church
C) being buried from a Presbyterian church here in NZ after worshipping as a Presbyterian here.

His mother was COI, father Presbyterian.  There were all sorts of mainly marryings and baptisings in COI and burying from the Presbyterian church.  I had a researcher in L'derry family history centre check my work back in the early 2000s and I spoke to him about my belief that this was a mainly Presbyterian family who seemed to 'strategically' marry or baptise in the COI church.  The researcher confirmed that this was done sometimes depending on how much the Presbyterians were in 'favour' at the time. 

My point in all of this is that it is not unknown for Presbyterians to lie low religion-wise and either marry/baptise in COI and then to resume their own religion once they had emigrated. I don't think they would regard it as changing religions necessarily as both were protestant but as a pragmatic solution to some 'problem'.

Aghadowey will be able to let us know if I am over stating anything on this issue. 

Offline shanreagh

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Re: Police Constable - unable to verify - *clarifications added*
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 14 February 18 10:08 GMT (UK) »
Just checking the older, in age, entries on 1901/1911 Irish census from National Archives.
There are Williams families and Pollock families in adjacent areas around Limavady/Londonderry Upper and Lower Cumber, Faughanvale etc .  Also a large number of the Pollock families are Presbyterian. 

Similarly on Griffiths 1858 there are Williams and Pollock families leasing land in the above areas. 

Also two  bachelor Williams brothers and their unmarried sister  in Fruithill T/L.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Fruithill/Ballyquinn/1525405/
 The ages of these would make them contemporaries of John Williams who goes to Scotland.

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Police Constable - unable to verify - *clarifications added*
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 14 February 18 10:54 GMT (UK) »
It's even more common for Presbyterians to be buried in COI graveyards (dating back to time when Presbyterians had to pay tithes to Established Church but were then allowed burial there coupled with the fact that many Presbyterian churches didn't have their own burial ground).

Regarding the above family found in Ballyquinn townland-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Fruithill/Ballyquinn/1525405

Looks like father's name was George-
Letters of Administration (with the Will annexed) of the personal estate of George Williams late of Ballyquin County Londonderry Farmer who died 7 November 1867 at same place were granted at Londonderry at Andrew Williams of Ballyquin Farmer the Son and a Legatee.

Will mentions wife; unmarried sons James & Andrew; daughter Margery Boyd; Melinda, Sarah & Catherine; son Robert (possibly going to America or elsewhere); daughter Isabella (cut off with 1 shilling)- 3 pages long and covers future conduct of James & Andrew, etc.

Sarah Williams in 1911-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Fruithill/Carrick_East/596508
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