John RONSON b. 1785 @Egremont. Lived @ Dalston. Baptism, Marriage and Death help

[Geoff-E]

There's a death in the Carlisle Journal, Friday 25th November 1864 (British Newspaper Archive)
"At Dalston Green, on the ?th inst., suddenly, Mr. John Ronson, gardener, formerly of Buckabank, aged ? years."

I dont have access to BNA so cant read it fully, but this seems like your guy?

Added:  If he was living in Dalston, he could be buried in Dalston churchyard  or alternatively in Carlisle Cemetery, which isn’t very far from Dalston.

Date was 11th inst, age was 80 years

[This Boy]

Yes Geoff, That is my John (junior) without a doubt. I do have the BNA access and have found it now. No idea how I missed it myself but brilliant 

[Gan Yam]

Added:  If he was living in Dalston, he could be buried in Dalston churchyard  or alternatively in Carlisle Cemetery, which isn’t very far from Dalston.

Just for info John is buried in Dalston cemetery and a note on the entry says buried in the old burial ground.

[This Boy]

Thank you yet again Gan Yam,

Forgive my ignorance but by Dalston Cemetery old burial ground do you think that means the church graveyard or some other, perhaps municipal area? Of course you may not know.

I found the following information online about burials at Dalston:

The Churchyard
The Churchyard is a closed burial ground having been fully utilised by 1864.

The Cemetery
The Parish Council has operated the cemetery since 1894 when the responsibility was transferred under the Local Government Act from the Parish Vestry. It is maintained to the Parish Council’s recommended standards and the grass is mown regularly in the growing season. All graves and burials are registered, the records being kept in perpetuity. They are available for inspection at the Council Offices by arrangement.

As John died actually IN 1864 perhaps he was one of the last buried in the churchyard. If not, the above gives no clue to burials between 1864 and 1894. I am surprised to learn the churchyard was fully utilised by 1864 as I am sure my mother said both her parents are buried there in 1978 and 2000.

Can you tell me where you found the entry? I am saving up all my research for a visit to Carlisle and Dalston. Perhaps this means there will be a headstone for me to discover!

Again, thank you. I really appreciate your interest and help.

Neil

[Geoff-E]

The satellite image of Dalston on Google Maps is very poor.

It appears that the cemetery was a northerly extension of the graveyard.  See old maps (1:2500 scale) at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/336500/550500/12/100954  You may need to zoom in (or out) a bit to see the map.

1863 - a small area around the church
1900 - a large extension
1971 - another bit added.

It is actually easier to look here http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=18&lat=54.8427&lon=-2.9825&layers=168&right=BingHyb

[Gan Yam]

Hi Neil

I looked at lots of records yesterday in the Carlisle Library.  The records there are numbered differently from the ones at the Archives, so cant check the online catalogue.  I think if I remember correctly this burial was recorded under the Dalston Cemetery record as opposed to the Dalston Church Records, which were seperate.  The other burials on the page had a plot reference number, which I dont think you get in a church cemetery records. There was a Hannah Ronson who died aged 15 from Cardewlees earlier in the same year in the church burial records and there were definitely other church burials later than 1864, but these were probably in family plots.  There probably wasn't anymore plots available from 1864 but still grave space within the plots that were already there (if that makes sense).  I can check the records again to clarify?

The newer part of the cemetery is at the rear of the church and the church cemetery, so there maybe an older part thats in between.  I can't recall the exact layout from the times I've been as to exactly how the older part is laid out.

Hope that makes sense!!

Julie

Added: taking a look at the maps posted by Geoff, I would assume that the old burial ground is the two pieces of ground nearest to the church, but not around the church.  I’m sure this was the more wild part of the cemetery, with much fewer stones.

[Gan Yam]

Hi
Just to clarify. I have checked and John’s burial entry is in the cemetery records.  I cross checked the church record to see if it was entered there and it isn’t. 

Burials started in the cemetery in March 1864.  As well as the actual record there is also an alphabetically index from 1864 to 1999, which I think you will find useful when you make your trip to Carlisle, a few Ronsons in there.

There are also church burials after 1864 and these records go up to 1901 or at least thats what the library have.

The records are all on microfilm and are held at the library, and will also be at the archive centre as well.

Burials in the cemetery between 1864 and 1894 must have been managed in a different way as they are definitely there.

Hope that helps.

[This Boy]

Julie and Geoff,

Thank you so much. I am absolutely blown away by the amazing help you have given me. I have just logged on very late on Friday night. I am going to re read your posts and try to fully understand and process them tomorrow. However, I just had to say a quick thank you again.

Neil.

[This Boy]

I think I need to update this. No good just asking for help, getting it in barrow loads and then not sharing the joy of cracking a problem that looked potentially unsolvable.

You may recall I believed my Ronson ancestors were seeded by John Ronson who married Agnes Garnet at Ulverston in 1776. John and Agnes had three sons, William, John and Joseph who were baptised at St Bees. I could not be certain that a fourth, apparent younger, brother baptised at St Bees, my direct ancestor Anthony, was actually a brother of the other three but it would have taken huge coincidence for him not to be due to the four 'brothers' ending up in the same village, plying the same trade in adulthood only many miles North of St Bees. The problem was that all four were fathered by a John Ronson but, according to several online sources, Anthony's mother was called Jane. Try as I might I could not find either a death for Agnes or a marriage or other reference of John and Jane.

I needed to tie them together with proof not likelihood. First, I looked at the bishops transcripts. These luckily included a reference to where the family lived and the occupation of the father. Sadly, though they clearly showed John and Agnes as parents of the first three brothers and John and Jane as parents of Anthony. The good news though was over the four baptism records the occupation and residence were recorded as follows:

1st of Low mill, spade maker
2nd of Rothersyke spade maker
3rd of Rothersyke spade maker/farmer
4th of Rothersyke farmer.

That progression but continuity was enough for me to consider these were definitely my people. Rothersyke is a tiny place. I was delighted with this evidence although it still left a niggle in my mind and the frustration of not being able to kill Agnes of nor find anything about Jane

In short the problem of no burial for Agnes and no John/Jane marriage still persisted.

I looked up the original record more in hope than expectation. In fact there wasn't even hope just a vague curiosity.
I could hardly believe my eyes. Anthony's parents were after all John and Agnes. It was as clear as day. It could not even count as a transcription error. It was unmistakably Agnes and very, very clearly written. Show it to 100 people and they would all read Agnes. A complete aberration of the part of the bishops transcriber.

So that puzzle was solved and a big thank you to all who helped me.

I have learned a lesson here to check and double check all facts carefully.