Author Topic: Brigden, Henry John, Gunner - RGA  (Read 380 times)

Offline DavidJP

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,310
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
    • View Profile
Brigden, Henry John, Gunner - RGA
« on: Monday 12 February 18 22:45 GMT (UK) »
Hi all,

I have a distant relative Henry John Brigden who was in the RGA at the time of his death in 1918. I am needing if possible some help with understanding what some letters mean in the few records that survive.

His CWGC entry is here: https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/306745/brigden,-henry-john/

His medal index card shows his numbers to be as follows:

RFA  Gunner  L/46354
RGA      -       191476

No theatre of war or date of entry has been entered on the card.


His medal & award roll entry for his Victory & British War medals show his previous unit as:

62 A.A.Sec. RFA  (Is the AA Anti Aircraft & what does the Sec mean?)


At the time of his death on 2nd Sept 1918 the CWGC shows him to be of:

"L" Anti-Aircraft Battery Royal Garrison Artillery


The Soldiers effects register shows:

Regiment - L A A Battery RGA
Place of Death - 3/2 Lancs F A M D S France (What does this mean?)

Was he in "L" anti aircraft battery or in a L A A Battery?

Could the place of death help in identifying an actual place of death or an area where the RGA were at the time of his death?

Which if any war diaries should I be looking at?

His service record does not survive.

Many thanks in advance.

Kind regards

David
Aitcheson, Aldred, Batty, Bauer, Bone, Brewer, Dean, Doyle, Durant, Fife, Finney, Gibson, Graham/Grayham, Hall, Harrison, Hersey, Hill, Holliss, Hudson, Hussey, Insley, Kelsey, King, Laver, Longmore, Luke, Mellor, Newman, North, Parker, Phillips, Porter, Read, Robinson, Rowel, Spink, Sproxton, Steer, Stevenson, Tanner, Witty/Whitty, Warburton, Wood.
(For more information on the above surnames please check the Surname Interest Table below.)

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline MaxD

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,652
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Brigden, Henry John, Gunner - RGA
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 13 February 18 10:17 GMT (UK) »
I have to start by saying that the AA in the Great War is one of the more complicated areas to research.  This piece from Longlongtrail explains, note the number of reorganisations and title changes. http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/development-of-british-anti-aircraft-artillery-in-the-first-world-war/ Even the definitive History of the Royal Artillery - Anti Aircraft by Routledge skates over the period disappointingly.
Easy bits first

No date of entry - this was only entered for men entering a theatre of war before the end of 1915.
Place of death was No 3/2 Lancs Field Ambulance Dressing Station which would have been the place he was taken to having been wounded.  That FA was supporting 57th (West Lancs) Division, useful because it at least gives an area where he was when wounded - more work need on that.
CWGC seems not to want to open this morning but as AA batteries were lettered I'd go for "L" AA Battery.  (LAA as in Light Anti Aircraft was not a term yet in use).

His medal roll entry is confusing.  He first served in the Royal Field Artillery with the number L/46354 - L indicating RA enlistment in new new army formation and in 62 AA Sec (Section).  Dilemma here is that I find no RFA AA Sections, as far as I see they were all RGA.

I haven't found a war diary for either of the specific units although, as the cataloguing is as complicated as the organisation changes, they may be hiding!

You fina query does need a little more work centred around the 57th Div and the location of the FA - give me a bit longer.

MaxD
Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline MaxD

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,652
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Brigden, Henry John, Gunner - RGA
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 13 February 18 11:34 GMT (UK) »
At the end of August 1918, 3/2 West Lancs Fd Amb was in Blaireville.  The link is to side by side maps although the trench map is from much earlier, can't find a 1918 one.  Can't at the moment find any indication of where L AA Battery was but at least you have the area where he passed away.

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=14&lat=50.2199&lon=2.6963&layers=101465107&right=BingHyb

A Google Earth search on Blaireville France will find it to see the area.

MaxD
Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

Offline MaxD

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,652
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Brigden, Henry John, Gunner - RGA
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 13 February 18 14:45 GMT (UK) »
The war diary of 57 Div HQ for August 1918 has a operation order which includes an air defence scheme.  This makes clear that the divisional troops are responsible for air defence up to 3000 feet, above that is the task of the army troops.  It briefly mentions that a section from K AA Battery would be in the forward areas to check on the suitability of sites for its guns.  A check of 1st Army's AA troop diaries shows no diary for L battery, although there are earlier diaries for K and Y  and the only one for 1918 is E Canadian AA Battery whose diary is here
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/lac-bac/results/images?module=images&SortSpec=score+desc&Language=eng&ShowForm=hide&SearchIn_1=mikanNumber&SearchInText_1=2004825&Operator_1=AND&SearchIn_2=&SearchInText_2=&Operator_2=AND&SearchIn_3=&SearchInText_3=&Level=&MaterialDateOperator=after&MaterialDate=&DigitalImages=1&Source=&ResultCount=10

I had hoped it might mention L Battery but only K battery and Y battery get passing mentions.

I find no diary for HQRA at First Army HQ which is where the batteries would have been directed from, I'm sure it is there but hiding from me!.
The XVII Corps artillery Commanders' diary for the period is at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/06654a1dc6304bdc991e102b1dea8c65.  You might like to invest 3.50 in case L AA Battery gets a passing mention?

MaxD

Should just point out that there were K and L Batteries in the RHA - not the same.  The hierarchy for the period is First Army, 17 Corps , 57 Division

Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

Offline jim1

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,182
  • ain't life grand
    • View Profile
Re: Brigden, Henry John, Gunner - RGA
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 13 February 18 15:12 GMT (UK) »
Wrong month.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline DavidJP

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,310
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
    • View Profile
Re: Brigden, Henry John, Gunner - RGA
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 13 February 18 19:47 GMT (UK) »
Hi MaxD & Jim1,

Many thanks for your replies, very much appreciated.

MaxD, Many thanks for all the info & links, very much appreciated. My thanks for decoding the letters, makes much more sense now! Have had a quick look at the links, lots to take in, will look in more detail shortly. I see what you mean re AA in Great War being a complicated area to research! What with constant improvements &/or expansions came regular reorganisations! Your help & assistance is very much appreciated. As regards the war diary from the national archives, that will definitely be added to the list of things to get. Unfortunately the cost of a new washing machine is taking precedence right now! ::)


Jim1, My thanks for your reply, much appreciated. I am slightly bemused by your response though, would I be right in thinking that what you originally posted turned out to be from the wrong month as alluded to? If so not to worry, done that myself several times! ::) Easy enough to do! ;D

My thanks once again.

Kind regards

David
Aitcheson, Aldred, Batty, Bauer, Bone, Brewer, Dean, Doyle, Durant, Fife, Finney, Gibson, Graham/Grayham, Hall, Harrison, Hersey, Hill, Holliss, Hudson, Hussey, Insley, Kelsey, King, Laver, Longmore, Luke, Mellor, Newman, North, Parker, Phillips, Porter, Read, Robinson, Rowel, Spink, Sproxton, Steer, Stevenson, Tanner, Witty/Whitty, Warburton, Wood.
(For more information on the above surnames please check the Surname Interest Table below.)

Offline jim1

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,182
  • ain't life grand
    • View Profile
Re: Brigden, Henry John, Gunner - RGA
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 13 February 18 22:10 GMT (UK) »
I put up their position for the 2nd. August 1918.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline MaxD

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,652
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Brigden, Henry John, Gunner - RGA
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 13 February 18 22:27 GMT (UK) »
And in re-looking at my location, I missed the fact that the Fd Amb moved from Blaireville a little further east to Ficheux (on the same side by side map as posted) on the 27th August and I see no other move before the 2 Sep.

MaXD
Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

Offline DavidJP

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,310
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
    • View Profile
Re: Brigden, Henry John, Gunner - RGA
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 13 February 18 22:33 GMT (UK) »
Hi Jim1 & MaxD,

Many thanks for your posts, much appreciated.

Jim1, Thanks for clarification, much appreciated.

MaxD, Many thanks for that, much appreciated.

Kind regards

David
Aitcheson, Aldred, Batty, Bauer, Bone, Brewer, Dean, Doyle, Durant, Fife, Finney, Gibson, Graham/Grayham, Hall, Harrison, Hersey, Hill, Holliss, Hudson, Hussey, Insley, Kelsey, King, Laver, Longmore, Luke, Mellor, Newman, North, Parker, Phillips, Porter, Read, Robinson, Rowel, Spink, Sproxton, Steer, Stevenson, Tanner, Witty/Whitty, Warburton, Wood.
(For more information on the above surnames please check the Surname Interest Table below.)