Author Topic: Londoner in the Northumberland Fusiliers c1917?  (Read 806 times)

Offline WilliamsKingBinns

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Londoner in the Northumberland Fusiliers c1917?
« on: Tuesday 13 February 18 21:36 GMT (UK) »
Hi all, this is my first post ever so please be patient if I have missed anything or am posting in the wrong place...!

I have just received a PDF birth certificate from the GRO for my great uncle Leslie James Williams, dated 29 April 1917 - see attached. His father, James Thomas Williams (born 24/10/1979), is listed as being a Private in the Northumberland Fusiliers. This is surprising not only as up until now we hadn't found any records of James Thomas serving in WW1 or at any other time but also because he, his father and his grandfather were all born in Bermondsey, London.

Does anyone know why a Londoner was serving with the Northumberland Fusiliers?

We have no family connection to that part of the world, and the tree so far sits firmly within the boundaries of the district of Southwark, London. It's definitely the correct birth certificate for the right person, so I wonder whether an error was made by the registrar who made the record? He is also listed as being a Warehouseman and we know this is correct.

I've done some light research using the medal rolls on Ancestry but with a name like this and no obvious connection to Northumberland, it's proving to be a bit difficult! Can anyone could help shed light on this?

Thanks in advance!

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Offline marcie dean

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Re: Londoner in the Northumberland Fusiliers c1917?
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 13 February 18 22:08 GMT (UK) »
it may well be that the local recruitment offices would know how old he was, if he was too young to sign up, they would not take him without his parents permission if he was under 18 or whatever age he had to qualify but another outfit further away from home may well overlook the age if they had a requirement for a certain amount of troops boys as young as 14 were signing up and being accepted rightly or wronglyif you ere there you eere thought to be old enough to know what you were signing up for and willling to take your chances with the rest; my great grandad was20 in the first ww but 45 in the 2ww.
Scotlandorkney flett bell, strickland laird traillcalqahoun.
Lanark/Argyll/Renfrew/Ayr:Smith, Steele,Kirkwood,Hamilton,May,orO'mayscott and anderso, craig , forbes taggart Kirkwood, milloy and steel apart ftom others which are numerous, graham mcilroy. stewart.brown battonisle of sku rothsay etc.
 searl rogers sutherland
Edinburgh/Aberdeen:portsea marsh,brownwhittcomb and others. to numerous to mentionweymouth frank.  Laidlaw,Brown,Dean//Charles/Hall/Slight/Johnston belgium loquet

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Online jim1

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Re: Londoner in the Northumberland Fusiliers c1917?
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 13 February 18 22:15 GMT (UK) »
Men were sent to whichever Regiment needed them irrespective of location.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline MaxD

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Re: Londoner in the Northumberland Fusiliers c1917?
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 13 February 18 22:22 GMT (UK) »
As jim1 says.

In addition, over 60% of WW1 service records were destroyed in the second war by bombing so it is not unusual that no records seems to be there for a man of that name in that regiment.   There is no medal record to be found either which suggests that he may not have served overseas either so family memory of war service would be likely not to be strong.

Welcome to Rootschat!

MaxD
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Offline Rena

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Re: Londoner in the Northumberland Fusiliers c1917?
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 14 February 18 01:10 GMT (UK) »
Have you found his medal card and noted the date he signed on?  My grandfather and three of his brothers in law were in the Northumberland fusiliers and they lived many miles away in the old East Riding of Yorkshire.  I was fortunate to find the WWI medal cards of all four men which showed they belonged to the RAMC (Royal Army Medical Corps) and three of them had consecutive army regiment numbers dating from 1911.  Another piece of good luck was that my grandfather's complete records from 1911 to his discharge from the army in 1916 (from exposure to gas poison) were all intact.

In 1908, the government of the day had decided to recruit a part time Territorial army which they could call on if and when the country needed them - and from the list of battalions in the Northumberland Fusiliers, their recruiting office had been very busy 

The records show that my grandfather trained in his home town but spent a couple of weeks up in Newcastle, Northumberland, for additional specialist training.   The 1911 census show he and his brothers in law were all poorly paid unskilled workers and I imagine that they earned extra money doing a few hours per week in the local territorial army - maybe a couple of hours midweek and a few more hours on a weekend - just like the territorial army of today.

This page shows the Regiments of the London Borough which doesn't include the Northumberland Fusiliers and it may be that his original battalion was eventually amalgamated with the NF when the need arose.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Regiment_(1908-1938)

Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy
MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell
Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie
Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell
Perthshire: Brown Ferguson
Wales: McCarthy, Thomas
England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells
Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline MaxD

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Re: Londoner in the Northumberland Fusiliers c1917?
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 14 February 18 10:34 GMT (UK) »
There is no medal record to be found

There are cards in the name of James (no middle name) Williams in the Northumberland Fusiliers but not identifiable.  To clarify if I may - medal cards do not show a signing on date and there is no record either of any of the Northumberland Fusiliers battalions having their origin in a London battalion.

MaxD
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Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

Offline Rena

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Re: Londoner in the Northumberland Fusiliers c1917?
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 14 February 18 13:14 GMT (UK) »
There is no medal record to be found

  To clarify if I may - medal cards do not show a signing on date and there is no record either of any of the Northumberland Fusiliers battalions having their origin in a London battalion.

MaxD

I can't put my hands on the actual medal cards but here's my grandfather's name on the medal role Index which, as you can see shows his enlistment date
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy
MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell
Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie
Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell
Perthshire: Brown Ferguson
Wales: McCarthy, Thomas
England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells
Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Online jim1

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Re: Londoner in the Northumberland Fusiliers c1917?
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 14 February 18 13:36 GMT (UK) »
This isn't his MIC this is his SWB card. The Ref.No. is where it appears on that Roll.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline Rena

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Re: Londoner in the Northumberland Fusiliers c1917?
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 14 February 18 14:04 GMT (UK) »
This isn't his MIC this is his SWB card. The Ref.No. is where it appears on that Roll.

I know, as I already explained; I don't have the medal card copy, which I downloaded years ago, to hand.  But it does give another avenue to explore in the hunt for the history of an ancestor.
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy
MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell
Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie
Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell
Perthshire: Brown Ferguson
Wales: McCarthy, Thomas
England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells
Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke