Author Topic: Can anybody help with deciphering this engraving please?  (Read 228 times)

Offline AlexWSussex

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Can anybody help with deciphering this engraving please?
« on: Wednesday 14 February 18 13:35 GMT (UK) »
Hi,
Can anybody help shed some light on the engraving shown in the attached photo please?

Following the death of my uncle last year we inherited an antique shotgun, which we understand had been owned by my great grandfather, before being left to my grandfather and subsequently to my uncle.

We donít think that my great grandfather would have been the guns original owner, since the gun was manufactured in 1886 and the dates donít tally, but we are trying to solve the mystery of who its original owner may have been. We contacted the gun makers Holland and Holland and sent them some photos and they did a history search through their order records but unfortunately they came back to us and said this particular guns order form is one of a handful they donít have. The most they could tell us over the phone was what was written on the engineers form, which was the name of Mr Robinson, the address of Gravetye Manor and the date of 1886. They also said that typically guns from that era just had scrollwork as standard on the side plates so for the custom engraving to be present meant it would have been quite a special order.

We then looked further into the information we were given and Gravetye Manor is not too far from where my family is from in Sussex. It was owned in 1886 by William Robinson a Victorian gardener, author, and publisher of Irish descent who was acquainted with Charles Darwin and his son Leonard, and was somewhat of an expert in wildflowers, but the engraving looks to us as though it possibly relates to the crest and arms of Pringle which to our knowledge doesnít seem to correspond to either Mr Robinson nor to our family (g-grandfathers surname was ďFrenchĒ).

We thought perhaps we might find a similar design used as bookplate in one of Mr Robinsons gardening publications but we canít so far seem to find any record of him using a coat of arms. It also seems unlikely the gun would have been ordered by him as a gift for someone named Pringle since they had to be custom made to the measurements of the owner/shooter, and would have taken up to two years to be produced.

Would sincerely appreciate any help you may be able to provide.

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Online Kiltpin

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Re: Can anybody help with deciphering this engraving please?
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 14 February 18 15:14 GMT (UK) »
I would blazon this as -

Argent on a bend Sable three escallops of the first.

Papworth (Page 235) gives three related coats -

Argent on a bend Sable three escallops of the first.
    Danyell - Eyley (Ely, Cambs)
    also
    Hawkwood - Kenley, Ireland
    also
    Baptist Levinz, Bishop of Sodor etc 1685-93 - Pring, Scotland.


Argent on a bend Sable three escallops Ermine
    Levinz

Argent on a bend Sable three escallops Or
    Pringle - Torsonce, Teviotdale and Burnhouse, Scotland
    also
    Tirington, Tyrington and Tyryngton

Papworth based his Ordinary on pre-existing Rolls and all above are thought to be transcription errors from the Glovers Roll, but used in reality.

Blazon in italics and Surnames in bold.

I hope that this will be of some help with your quest.

Regards

Chas
Whannell - Eaton - Jackson
India - Scotland - Australia

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Offline wee Hugh

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Re: Can anybody help with deciphering this engraving please?
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 14 February 18 15:28 GMT (UK) »
Also Pringle of Caledon, Co. Tyrone (see Burke's General Armory).
Bagwell of Kilmore & Lisronagh, Co. Tipperary;  Beatty from Enniskillen;  Brown from Preston, Lancs.;  Burke of Ballydugan, Co. Galway;  Casement in the IoM and Co. Antrim;  Davison of Knockboy, Broughshane;  Frobisher;  Guillemard;  Harrison in Co. Antrim and Dublin;  Jones around Burton Pedwardine, Lincs.;  Lindesay of Loughry;  Newcomen of Camlagh, Co. Roscommon;  Shield;  Watson from Kidderminster;  Wilkinson from Leeds

Online Flattybasher9

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Re: Can anybody help with deciphering this engraving please?
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 14 February 18 15:56 GMT (UK) »
Nice gun. Have serviced one or two of these when I was a gunsmith. The gun pattern looks like a H & H "Royal". Some of these were produced with plain sidelocks, for engraving at a later date. There are similarities with two of the Pringle coats of arms, but both are American. The inverted Scallop directly above the shield is limited to these as far as I have found so far. "Robert Smith Pringle and W. Aston Pringle", but he has a star in the top right corner. As the "Pringle" clan does not presently "Legally" exist, why not write to the The Court of the Lord Lyon in Edinburgh and ask their opinion.

Malky
Ps, considering all the hoo haa about guns nowadays, hope that you have a licence for it.

Online Kiltpin

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Re: Can anybody help with deciphering this engraving please?
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 14 February 18 15:56 GMT (UK) »
Also Pringle of Caledon, Co. Tyrone (see Burke's General Armory).

Well, no.

That blazon is - Ermine on a bend Sable three escallops Erminois

Sorry

Regards

Chas
Whannell - Eaton - Jackson
India - Scotland - Australia

Offline AlexWSussex

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Re: Can anybody help with deciphering this engraving please?
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 14 February 18 18:41 GMT (UK) »
Thank you so much for all of the replies and assistance.

Kiltpin, the detail you have provided is sincerely appreciated, we have gotten hold of the contact details for the author who wrote William Robinsons biography and will look to contact him and pass on all of the information kindly provided in this thread regarding the Surnames in the hope that he may be able to see a direct connection to Mr Robinson and his family, or perhaps one of his close acquaintances.

Flattybasher9, you have a great eye as this is indeed a Royal, and happy to say we hold shotgun licenses and the gun is safely locked away in the gun cabinet. I think part of the reason it was left to us was that my uncle knew we were the only other ones in the family with a license and cabinet to keep it in! I will certainly do as you advise and contact the Court of the Lord Lyon as my next step and see if they can assist in providing any further information.

Apologies if this is a 'rookie' or unhelpful question, but may I ask in regards to the flowers shown, I appreciate different flower species can hold different meanings in heraldry so does anybody know what type they might be in this instance?

Online Kiltpin

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Re: Can anybody help with deciphering this engraving please?
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 14 February 18 19:12 GMT (UK) »
Alex, there is much written about the symbology of heraldry and most of it is what the writer wishes were true rather than what is true.

The red rose for Lancaster, the white for Yorkshire, the daffodil  for Wales and the thistle for Scotland come to mind. But that is not say that they are exclusive to one country, or county, or family, or individual. There are thousands of rampant lions throughout what is now Germany - all belonging to different people.

I would think that in this case, everything outside the shield (except for the crest) is decorative only and used to fill up space.

Regards

Chas
Whannell - Eaton - Jackson
India - Scotland - Australia

Offline AlexWSussex

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Re: Can anybody help with deciphering this engraving please?
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 14 February 18 20:01 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for clarifying for me Chas, and sorry again for the novice question!

Online Flattybasher9

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Re: Can anybody help with deciphering this engraving please?
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 14 February 18 20:40 GMT (UK) »
Alex, can you post a photograph of the right hand lock to check the engraving on that side.

Malky