Author Topic: Todd, Tong, Saunderson, Griffiths, London (with ties to Penrith and Wales)  (Read 1466 times)

Offline AlanWatson

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Hi,

On 31 October 1756 in St Mary Le Strand, Mary Tong spinster of this parish married Henry Todd bachelor of St Clement Danes by licence. A succession of children was christened to them in St Clement Danes, starting the following year and including my ancestor George (christened 15 Jun 1760). Two others Griffith Henry (christened in St Martin in the Fields 28 Feb 1773) and Frances (St George Hanover Square 28 April 1776) are probably also theirs. (Westminster parish records available on FindmyPast.)

The witnesses at their wedding were both called William Tong, possibly the bride's father and brother.

William Tong of Chelsea in the parish of St George Hanover Square (presumably the brother) wrote a will dated 5 September 1797 which was proved in the Canterbury Court on 10 March 1804. (He was buried in St Mary Le Strand on 7 March 1804.) The will is fairly long and difficult to read but it mentions among others, his nephews George and Griffith Todd, his sister Ann wife of John Saunderson (they married at St Martin in the Fields on 12 June 1774), John Saunderson of Penrith, Cumberland, son of John Saunderson, William Saunderson also son of John Saunderson the father, the testator's late brother in law Griffith Williams (and two of the late Griffith's faithful clerks) and Frances Williams, daughter of the late Sir Hugh Williams of somewhere that might read Beaumaris North Wales (on Anglesey).

Assuming that this reading is correct, Sir Hugh Williams would have been the baronet/MP described here http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1754-1790/member/williams-sir-hugh-1718-94 who died in 1794. He had a daughter Frances Emma christened in Beaumaris on 10 Oct 1765 who may well have been the Frances mentioned in the will.

Apart from a James Saunderson christened in St Martin in the Fields in June 1789 to parents John and Ann, I am struggling to find other records of the family - anything else on the Saundersons, birth and death records of Mary nee Tong and husband George Todd, their marriage licence, a birth for William Tong in the will, anything on William Tong the father, anything sure on Griffith Williams or anything to clarify the relationship between the Saundersons and the Williamses.

This is essentially a continuation of an earlier thread on the Todds (here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=745934.msg6437514#msg6437514). Rootschatters were then very helpful in clarifying other parts of the Todd family, although at that stage we did not find the Todd/Tong marriage or related christenings. As I explained in the earlier thread, FamilySearch, following a pedigree prepared by a cousin George William Todd, had the wife of Henry Todd and the mother of George and Griffith Henry as Frances Williams. It also showed her descent from John of Gaunt via Sir Griffith Williams (wikipedia here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Griffith_Williams,_1st_Baronet - 1st Baronet in the line in which sir Hugh was the 8th) whose name was said to be the source of the christian name Griffith which appears throughout the Todd family tree.

I think that the Todd/Tong marriage and subsequent christenings show that this pedigree was wrong, but the presence of a Frances Williams, a Griffith Williams and a Williams baronet in William Tong's will suggest that there might have been an element of truth in it.

I would love to uncover the real relationship between the Todd, Tong and Willams families and would be very grateful for any help that Rootschatters might be able to give.

Many thanks,


Alan Watson

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Offline ciderdrinker

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Re: Todd, Tong, Saunderson, Griffiths, London (with ties to Penrith and Wales)
« Reply #1 on: Friday 23 February 18 13:07 GMT (UK) »
Hello
Could William Tong junior of the Strand be married to Miss Williams sister of Griffith Williams.
William Tong licence to marry Frances Williams 29.1.1766 at St Mary le Strand.
William is 28 of Mary le Strand ,Frances 26 of the parish of Putney.
They married 2 Feb 1766.

There's an apprenticeship of William Tong master glazier St Mary le Strand for John King s of Ann King 31.12.1735 who may be Dad.
And his possible marriage at St Clement Danes to Maline Yates 6.2.1734 bach and spinster both of this parish.
That would give 4 years to the birth of son William.
Maline Tong was buried 16 Sep 1741 at St Mary le Strand .

Henry Todd of the Strand is on Westminster rates books 1754-1771

Ciderdrinker

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Offline AlanWatson

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Re: Todd, Tong, Saunderson, Griffiths, London (with ties to Penrith and Wales)
« Reply #2 on: Friday 23 February 18 14:22 GMT (UK) »
Many thanks. All that looks extremely likely.

It's a little surprising that the baptisms of Ann, Mary and William Tong don't appear in the Westminster Parish records, but these things happen.

Ann Tong would have been a little old when she married in 1774 if her mother was Maline Yates, but the first William Tong could easily have married again.

Given the recurrence of names it seems likely that Frances and Griffith Williams were cousins of the other Frances Williams, daughter of Sir Hugh. The Williams Baronets are described here https://archive.org/stream/cu31924092524390#page/n233/mode/2up but there is little on other branches of the family.

Maline Yates is not a very common name, and there were two more of them in Herefordshire in the previous century.

I'm very grateful.


Alan

Offline AlanWatson

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Re: Todd, Tong, Saunderson, Griffiths, London (with ties to Penrith and Wales)
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 24 February 18 02:09 GMT (UK) »
Hi,

I neglected to mention in my original post that I owe a debt to the owner of a public tree on Ancestry - the husband of a cousin - who discovered the Todd/Tong marriage and baptisms. I have now been in contact with him. He independently found the Tong/Williams marriage that Ciderdrinker also found and also tells me that the licence for the Todd/Tong marriage (from the Vicar General) is available from the Society of Genealogists. He hopes to obtain a copy.

Alan

Offline Lily M

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Re: Todd, Tong, Saunderson, Griffiths, London (with ties to Penrith and Wales)
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 24 February 18 11:46 GMT (UK) »
Have you seen this Will?  Possibly more of a hindrance than a help.  Can Ann have both a father and an uncle called William Tong?  Maybe I’ve misread it. (Transcribed as William Long)

William Tong - St.Mary Strand - glazier  1765

(Names I can pick out)

My sister Elizabeth Tong of the parish of ? in the county of Lincoln.
My niece Ann Tong of St.Mary, Strand   Executrix William Tong her father
My niece Mary wife of Henry Todd and their sons William Todd and George Todd.
Mrs. Catherine Burwood who now lives with me.
My nephew William Tong.


Alan, I see that the 1797 will of William Tong mentions the Cresswells of Rochester, from one of your earlier posts.  A lovely piece of confirmation to have.

Offline AlanWatson

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Re: Todd, Tong, Saunderson, Griffiths, London (with ties to Penrith and Wales)
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 24 February 18 14:45 GMT (UK) »
Hello Lily,

Lovely to see you on the case. Well done for finding the will; Ancestry managed to get both the name and the parish wrong which must have made it hard to find.

It seems very likely to be the same William Tong glazier as Ciderdrinker found in the apprenticeship records and probably the same one who married Maline Yates.

I agree that the relationships are very puzzling. Surely there couldn't have been two brothers William Tong at the same time. Perhaps the words 'nephew' and 'niece' are used inexactly, to describe a great nephew/niece or a first cousin once removed or similar. Or I suppose that it is logically possible that this William Tong married the sister of the first William Tong so that Ann had a father and an uncle called William Tong who weren't brothers.

Perhaps the great uncle/great niece option is most promising, but it would be lovely to find something else to clarify.

Then there is 'my nephew William Tong' mentioned in the will. Was he Ann's brother or cousin or possibly if she was a great niece and he an ordinary nephew her father. All rather puzzling.

Yes the mention of William Cresswell in the first will is very satisfying. You may recall that William Cresswell was mentioned in the will of Ellin Cresswell's husband George Strover (George Todd's father in law). You also found his christening record, although not one for Ellin. We assumed that they were brother and sister but couldn't really prove it. Although this latest mention provides further evidence that we are looking at the same extended family, it doesn't really help close that question.

Anyway, many thanks for finding and sharing the will.


Alan

Offline Lily M

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Re: Todd, Tong, Saunderson, Griffiths, London (with ties to Penrith and Wales)
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 24 February 18 15:08 GMT (UK) »
I wonder if the William Tong who died 1765 was the one who was given Freedom of the City in 1750

William Tong - glazier
Son of Richard Tong of ? in the county of Lincolnshire.


There are more Tongs than I’d expected.  Do you think there’s any connection to the one in King’s Bench Prison, Surrey 1804?   Mentioned in the London Gazette Issues 15725 page 970; 15727 page 987 and 15725 page 946.  I would have thought not, but it states “formerley of Battle Bridge, Islington” and William Tong dd.1797/1804 mentions owning property at Battle Bridge, St.Pancras.

Not getting anywhere with the Saundersons or Williames.

Offline Lily M

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Re: Todd, Tong, Saunderson, Griffiths, London (with ties to Penrith and Wales)
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 24 February 18 16:11 GMT (UK) »
This might be William Tong who died 1765:

William Tong baptised 1729 in Haxey, Lincolnshire
Parents Richard and Elizabeth

A sister living in Haxey was mentioned in his will.

Offline AlanWatson

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Re: Todd, Tong, Saunderson, Griffiths, London (with ties to Penrith and Wales)
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 25 February 18 02:32 GMT (UK) »
Richard Tong married Eliza Lawton in Haxley in 1724. They also christened an Ann Tong (the name of the sister mentioned in the will) on 31 May 1737.

Obviously, the William christened in 1729 could not have been the same one who was already a master glazier in 1735 or who married Maline Yates in 1734, but we already knew that we had several related William Tongs.
 
The Haxey records also have a family christened there in the 1690s including Sarah (1693), William (1695) and Richard (1698), all with father William and mother Sarah.

There's also a Canterbury will proved 23 May 1655 of the wonderfully named Hercules Tong of Owston Lincolnshire, not far away which makes a bequest to his brother William.

I'm not quite sure what to make of all this, or of Lily's earlier discovery about the King's Bench Prison.

Alan