Author Topic: Todd, Tong, Saunderson, Griffiths, London (with ties to Penrith and Wales)  (Read 1455 times)

Offline AlanWatson

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Todd, Tong, Saunderson, Williams, London (with ties to Penrith and Wales)
« Reply #18 on: Saturday 03 March 18 06:35 GMT (UK) »
As a minor aside, Griffith Henry Todd, b 1773 to Henry Todd and Mary nee Tong and mentioned in William Tong's 1804 will married Sarah Williams in 1801 in St Martin of the Fields - him widower (previously married to Elizabeth Bott) and her spinster, both of this parish. The marriage was by licence which I have not yet found. They had three children that I can see Griffith Henry (1804), Sarah (1806) and Elizabeth (1811), Griffith Henry christened in St Martin in the Fields and the other two in St Giles in the Fields.

Williams is quite a common name so there may be no relation between his wife Sarah Williams and Frances Williams, but then again there might be. I haven't found Sarah's birth or parents yet.

Alan

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline AlanWatson

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Todd, Tong, Saunderson, Griffiths, London (with ties to Penrith and Wales)
« Reply #19 on: Saturday 10 March 18 11:12 GMT (UK) »
I find myself puzzled again and in need of more help.

My collaborator on Ancestry has pointed me back to the apprenticeship record that I mentioned in my first post in the earlier Rootshat thread here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=745934.0

I mentioned there that my ancestor "Thomasís father may have been the George Todd, son of Henry Todd linen draper, St Martin in the Fields, who was apprenticed to the Glazierís company in 1774. In that case Thomasís brother William Todd was admitted to the Glazierís company by patronage in 1825."

What I didn't mention, because it didn't seem relevant, was that George Todd's apprentice master was (transcribed as) William Tongue.

This now seems very relevant indeed, since we know that both the William Tong's in the wills were glaziers and that George Todd was specifically mentioned in the 1804 will of the William Tong who must have taken him as an apprentice. Also all this generation of our Todds were from St Martin in the Fields or St Clement Danes just up the strand.

Ciderdrinker replied as follows

Hello
Let's start with that second marriage in 1839 which you already have.
It clearly states Thomas is a widower cowkeeper Greenwich son of George Todd stockbroker.

The baptism i think is him is at St George Hannover Square 12.2.1801
Thomas Todd s of George and Mary Todd born January 10th. No other details.

...

london Lives website gives a poll book which looks like George.
George Todd exchange broker St George Hannover Square Grosvenor Row 1802 voted for Gardener.
So it does look like that baptism for Thomas at Hannover square is right.

The same year there is a George Todd linen draper in the strand who voted for Gardner and Fox but i really don't think he is the same man.

Ciderdrinker

It seems clear that George Todd of St Martins in the Fields apprenticed to William Tong was from the Todd/Tong/Williams family that we have been discussing here. But can he really have been a glazier, a linen draper and a stockbroker?

On the other hand, I know (for all the reasons set out in the earlier thread) that my Thomas Todd was the son of George Todd and Mary Strover and, as Lily pointed out in this thread, the same 1804 will that mentions George and Griffith Todd, also mentions William Cresswell, Mary Strover's maternal uncle.

But if our George Todd was apprenticed as a glazier but then became an exchange broker, then is it really credible that another George Todd ran a linen draper's business in The Strand where our George Todd's father Henry had earlier been a linen draper?

Of course George Todd the linen draper (who was in the Strand for some time according to the poll books and couple of Old Bailey cases) may have been a nephew or cousin or something, but I can't find BMD records, wills or anything else that would help resolve this.

Another of my problems is that I don't have clear dates of death, wills or burial records for George Todd (exchange broker) or his wife Mary nee Strover.

All thoughts gratefully received.


Alan

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline AlanWatson

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Todd, Tong, Saunderson, Griffiths, London (with ties to Penrith and Wales)
« Reply #20 on: Sunday 18 March 18 11:40 GMT (UK) »
Hi,

As comments have dried up I would like to thank everyone for their contributions and declare the thread closed. In doing so, it seems sensible to summarise my remaining doubt and question for the record.

Could George Todd member of the company of glaziers of St Pancras in 1796 really have been George Todd exchange broker of St George Hanover Square in 1802? If so, everything fits; if not, we have merged two families together.

Unfortunately I canít find his or his wifeís wills which might resolve the issues. Here is the evidence:
  • The elder William Tongís 1763 will included a bequest to Ďmy niece Mary Todd the wife of Henry Todd of St Clement Danes linen draperí.
  • George Todd, son of Henry Todd linen draper of St Martin in the Fields was apprenticed to (the younger), William Tong glazier in 1774.
  • The younger William Tongís 1797 will refers to George Todd of St Pancras.
  • George Todd member of the Company of Glaziers living St Pancras voted in a 1796 City of London election.
  • William and Mary Todd were christened in St Pancras (or nearby) to parents George and Mary.
  • William Tong, glazier voted in the same 1796 City of London election in Grosvenor Row, Chelsea, parish of St George Hanover Square. He used the same address in his 1797 will and paid tax there in 1802 before dying in 1804.
  • George Todd exchange broker voted at Grosvenor Row, Chelsea in 1802.
  • A George Todd was master of the Worshipful Company of Glaziers in 1804.
  • Griffith, Thomas and Richard Todd were christened a St George Hanover Square to parents George and Mary in 1797, 1801 and 1804.
  • Griffith Toddís 1813 apprenticeship refers to his father as a broker living in Islington rather than Hanover Square; the record of son Thomasís second marriage in 1839 also refers to his father as a broker.
  • There is lots of evidence putting children William, Mary, Griffith, Thomas and Richard in the same family. William and Mary were plainly brother and sister from their wedding records and Maryís will. So too were Griffith, Thomas and Richard. William became a member of the guild of glaziers by patrimony but worked as a stockbroker. Griffith Todd and his wife Mary and William Todd and his wife Susannah registered the births of their children at Dr Williamsí library on the same day in 1835.

On balance I think that this must be one George Todd. Of course all we know from 1796 is that he was a member of the Company of Glaziers, not that he was working as one. He was apprenticed as a glazier in 1774, but his master/mentor/uncle William Tong described himself as a Ďgentlemaní rather than glazier in his 1797 will and was plainly a rich man at that time. George Todd could have taken up a different and more lucrative profession some time after completing his apprenticeship. Even so, it's not completely satisfactory.

Then there is the George Todd linen draper who voted in 1802 in the Strand. He lived in the same street and had the same occupation as Henry Todd, father of George the glazier. Where does he fit in?

Thanks again for all your help.


Alan

Offline Lily M

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 600
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Todd, Tong, Saunderson, Griffiths, London (with ties to Penrith and Wales)
« Reply #21 on: Tuesday 20 March 18 11:33 GMT (UK) »
Hi Alan,  Just a couple of bits to add to your timeline above.

1789-1795    George Todd took over as rate payer of the same house (the Strand, two doors from
            Windsor Court) where William Tong had lived up till that time.

1790   Old Bailey - In the parish of St.Mary le Strand
           George Todd - "I am a plumber and glazier"

1813    The apprenticeship you mentioned
            Griffith Todd son of George Todd of 10 Owen's Place, Goswell Street - broker - bound to
            Robert Thompson of Holborn - grocer

             This fits in with George Todd the broker, who lived in Clerkenwell from, at least, 1808-1823

Surely, these are one and the same man.

As for George Todd the linen draper!!  I'd like to dismiss him, but can't find any concrete evidence to do so, except, perhaps, the Old Bailey statement in 1815 "I am a linen draper in the Strand - my shop is part of my house".  Unlikely to be yours,  as none of the children were born there.       


Offline J.J.

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 9,797
  • Census Crown © www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Todd, Tong, Saunderson, Griffiths, London (with ties to Penrith and Wales)
« Reply #22 on: Thursday 12 April 18 17:35 BST (UK) »
After looking at several hundred linen drapers in the past, I'd never say rule someone out for 3 occupations, as it seems to be not all that unusual.  Masters often appear to give their credentials under their livery company status but actual occupations can often appear as one or two unrelated crafts / occupations. (ie: our Fishmongers who were clothworkers?)

Have no idea if related, but as an example:
This John Wm Tongue....who acquired his own freedom in 1823, somehow deserved a knighthood somewhere betw 1848/1853
Began as an Undertaker, then Carpenter & Undertaker, then Undertaker & Boxmaker
 70 & 71 North St John Street Smithfield, Msex - always as a Master Co Clothworker


!!! 1768 -William Tong "Master -Citizen and glazier, Co Draper"
    Occupation "plumber" - "Strand near the new church", Middlesex

1715 William Tonge new apprentice father James
William Tonge New freeman Co Draper - father James Tonge woollendraper - maidstone Kent   
1729 William Tonge -Occupation not stated - MasterCo Draper
1739 a Wm Tong witnesses as Wm. Tong Co Draper
1781 James Tonge New Draper's apprentice -father James Tonge  grocer - Sittingbourne Kent, Kent
started out with William Field  "cheesemonger" - Thames Street, London   "Master Co Draper"
ended up with George "Harris" - "haberdasher" - Fleet Street S Brides, London  "master Citizen & weaver"
 ( at freedom master Harris listed as Citizen & weaver Co Draper - Chatham Kent, Kent)

More under Tong Tonge Tongue  http://www.londonroll.org/

Too early to be that Henry Todd, the draper, but will add as another example of oddities...
Henry Todd- father Christopher Todd of Durham -New apprentice 1704 who did well over his req'd time (freedom 1717) Christopher Doeker - "bellmonger" - Barnby Street Southwark, Surrey  Master Co Draper
"We search for information, but the burden of proof is always with the thread owner"

Canadian  census  transcribed  data  ©2005 www.AutomatedGenealogy.com

Offline AlanWatson

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Todd, Tong, Saunderson, Griffiths, London (with ties to Penrith and Wales)
« Reply #23 on: Friday 13 April 18 11:19 BST (UK) »
Good to hear from you JJ, and with lots of interesting stuff as always. I will have to look into William Tong glazier and draper of the strand in particular.

As an aside, my collaborator on Ancestry points out that it holds London Stock Exchange membership records, in theory starting in 1802. Our exchange brokers, George and William Todd appear there, the former from 1805 and the latter from his father's death in 1825. The entries confirmed the addresses in Islington that we already had, but don't really help resolve whether the broker and the glazier were the same person.

Alan