Todd, Tong, Saunderson, Griffiths, London (with ties to Penrith and Wales)

[AlanWatson]

William Tong son of William Tong husbandman of Craseloud Lincolnshire was apprenticed to be a plumber /glazier in Mansfield in 1710.

This must be the William born 1695. I think that the Freeman of London was from the same place and his nephew.

Alan 

[Lily M]

Moving to the Williamses, there’s this will.  It may help somewhere along the line.

Frances Williams - Putney - dated 1762

I find it difficult to read, but can make out:

Nephew Griffiths Williams
Nieces Frances; Margaret and Mary Williams

[AlanWatson]

Another great spot. As she was a spinster and died in 1762 she can't have been either of the Frances Williamses that we have identified so far or their mother, but her location in Putney and the names in the will clearly place in in the family.

I think she asks to be buried in Putney Church (she was on 5 Oct 1762) as close as possible to her dear mother 'William Church's wife' - although I definitely can't be sure about that and I haven't found any trace of his marriage/burial. Perhaps others could read this part of the text and see whether they can be more sure of what it says.

I agree about the names mentioned in the will, meaning that Frances Williams who married William Tong had sisters Mary and Margaret and an aunt Frances as well as her brother Griffith.

By the way, the niece Frances Williams b c 1740 who married William Tong in 1766 may have been buried in St Mary Le Strand on 4 Jun 1795 which would explain why she didn't feature in his will dated 1797.

Also Mary Todd nee Tong who sister of William Tong who died 1804 may have been buried in St Martin in the Fields on 15 March 1786 or in St Mary Le Strand on 25 December 1788, either of which would explain why she didn't feature in the will.


Alan

[Lily M]

Well read that it says mother.  The husband’s name looks like Curteis to me.  There was a William Curteis buried at Putney in 1747, but I can’t see anyone else with that name.   Nor a promising marriage.

[Bookbox]

I think she asks to be buried in Putney Church (she was on 5 Oct 1762) as close as possible to her dear mother 'William Church's wife' - although I definitely can't be sure about that and I haven't found any trace of his marriage/burial. Perhaps others could read this part of the text and see whether they can be more sure of what it says.

... to be Buried as near my late and Dear Unckle
William Curties in the Middle Isle near the Reading Desk
in Putney Church ...

[Lily M]

 Well worked out Bookbox.

I can see who William Curteis was, but I can’t see where he fits in with the Williamses.

[AlanWatson]

I am trying (and failing) to get my mind around the various William Tongs and their relationship to Mary Tong who married Henry Todd in 1756 and had her last child in 1776, putting her birth between 1730 and 1740.

It seems to me that Craseloud (mentioned in the Mansfield apprenticeship and the freedom of the City) was probably a farm in Haxey, Lincolnshire, where we have

William (husbandman) and Sarah who baptised
   Anna (1690)
   Sarah (1693)
   William (1695) apprentice glazier Mansfield 1710 took an apprentice in Strand 1735 m M Yates 1734
   Richard (1698) (farmer) m 1724 Eliza Lawton and baptised
        Sarah (1725)
        William (1729) bought Freedom City of London 1750 as a Glazier
        Mary (1733)
        Ann (1738)

The will of William Tong proved in 1804  mentions his late brother in law Griffith Williams, so he the probably married Frances Williams in 1766. His wedding licence states that he was 28 years old at the time - ie he may have been born cir 1738. This date fits well with him being the son of William chr 1695 and m 1734.

His will also mentions among others

His sister Ann m John Saunderson (in 1774)
His nephews George and Griffith Todd (which would make him Mary's brother - their dates of birth are also consistent.)

Turning to the will of William Tong glazier of St Mary Le Strand proved 1765, the first problem was the reading that it mentiona my niece Ann Tong of St Mary Strand and William Tong her father. I now wonder whether this was 'William Tong hereafter to be mentioned' - ie his nephew William Tong who appeared later. (Could others check?)

It also mentioned

My sister Elizabeth Tong of Haxey (whose christening I can't see)
My niece Ann Tong of St.Mary, Strand (Executrix)
My niece Mary wife of Henry Todd and their sons William Todd and George Todd.
My nephew William Tong.

It seems clear that the author of this will was the uncle of the William Todd of the 1804 will - he mentions a nephew William; Mary and Ann were his nieces and the other William's sisters. William (1695) was uncle to William (1729) but the dates don't work - the latter William's age at marriage would have been out by nine years.

If William (d 1804) and Mary were children of William (1695) then William (1729) would have been Mary's cousin and only a few years older than her. He would surely not have referred to her as his niece.

And William (1695) could not have had an uncle William Tong, since his father was also William Tong. A great uncle would have been too old to have lived until 1765.

I am confused. Perhaps the christenings in Haxey are red herrings, but this seems unlikely as the place is mentioned in one of the wills and Lincolnshire in the glazier apprentice/freedom documents, or perhaps William d 1804 did not marry Frances Williams or his age on his marriage licence was wrong.

And of course, we haven't yet found baptisms for Mary and many of the others which might help clarify.

Any thoughts gratefully received.


Alan

[Lily M]

Have you had any luck yet, sorting the Tongs out?

I don’t have the solution - these are just my thoughts.

I haven’t been able to find any Tong family that fits better than the family you have found in Haxey.

The main obstacle is William stating that he was 28 years old when he married Frances. (Are we prepared to disbelieve him?)

I agree with you that I misinterpreted “hereafter” for “her father” on the 1765 will.  So William could have been a true uncle.

If he was the one born 1695 in Haxey with parents William and Sarah, these could be his family:

Burials in Haxey
1693 Sarah d.of William Tong
1717 Ann d.of William and Sarah Tong
1719 Sarah wife of William Tong
1722 William Tong
1762 Richard Tong

(Just a possibility - As the Haxey baptisms don’t appear to start until 1690, maybe sister Elizabeth was born before then).

This leaves William Tong with his brother Richard’s wife and children, William, Sarah, Mary and Ann.

Off to St.Mary le Strand
The only Tong burials at that time are:
1741 Maline
1765 William  (possible uncle b.1695)
1795 Frances  (probably nee Williams)
1804 William (the brother)
1747 Sarah (MAYBE Richard’s daughter b.1725)
1764 Elizabeth (MAYBE sister Elizabeth from Haxey)  (I can’t find a record of her dying in Haxey.  William Tong’s 1765 will was actually written in 1763, so she would still have been alive then.)

How many maybes are acceptable?

There’s no burial amongst these for Richard’s wife Eliza.

I think Craseloud should be Graizeloud.  A hamlet of Haxey.

Seen from the Westminster Rates, the Tong family lived in the same house on the Strand from, at least, 1743 - 1789.

Of the two William Tong witnesses at the Todd/Tong marriage (comparing signatures) -  one was on the St.Mary’s church committee from 1755 - 1764  the other from 1769 - 1789.

The William who married Maline was a constable at the parish in 1744 (same signature).  The signature differs from “uncle” William’s, so I can’t be sure if it is him.

It’s really all down to William born 1729 or 1738.

[AlanWatson]

Many thanks for your efforts on this. You have got further than me, particularly on finding Graizelound (very convincing) and checking out the signatures.

Putting the wedding licence to one side, the dates all look coherent. In particular, Richard's death in 1762 fits well with his brother writing a will in 1763 in which wasn't mentioned, and as you point out even if the Elizabeth who died in 1764 was the sister, the date is not inconsistent (although a burial in Haxey would have been neater).

The marriage licence is annoying though. The age of 28 is very specific, when 'over 21' would have done. And a baptism for Elizabeth would have been nice.

I have been trying and failing to find other wills that might shed extra light - Williams, Todd, Yates or Saunderson. I still hope to get a copy of the Todd/Tong marriage licence, but I don't see how this will help with the Tongs.

In the absence of any other information, I think that your suggestion is best, despite the inconsistency over the dob.

Thanks again for all your insights and hard work.

Alan

PS I also wonder about the late brother in law Griffith Williams, why he had two clerks but was unable to make sufficient provision for them himself, but have drawn a blank on this too.