Author Topic: Alexander Will Abt 1850 - hit a brick wall trying to find my GGGrandfather  (Read 2125 times)

Offline AlasdairGTW

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Alexander Will Abt 1850 - hit a brick wall trying to find my GGGrandfather
« on: Saturday 24 February 18 03:58 GMT (UK) »
Hello,
Hoping someone can please help me, I am struggling to find any information on my Great Great Grandfather Alexander Will's birth, this obviously preventing me going any further back.
I had first thought that maybe Alexander was being looked after by Ann Innes on behalf of someone else, my thoughts were on behalf of James Will and Margaret Bain of Speymouth, they had a son Alexander Will around about the same time as my GGGF was born and also a younger daughter Margaret McKidd Will, I thought the ages fitted in well with the Margaret that later appears with Ann Innes in 1861 census New Pitsligo but later found a death registration for an Alexander Will born to James and Margaret……… any advice or breakthroughs most welcome.
Heres what I have so far -
BIRTH
Alexander Will - Born about 1850
MARRIAGE 1 - 1871 WILL, ALEXANDER (Statutory registers Marriages 169/ 13)
16/12/1871 (roughly 3 years after the birth of Mary Ann?)
Alexander a 21 year old Farm Servant, resident of Tillywharn Farm, parents Alexander Will a Farm Labourer and Ann Innes, all work.
Barbara also 21 resident of New Aberdour, parents John McRobbie a farm labourer and Ann Hutchison.
Witness’s – Alexander McRobbie and Thomas McRobbie.
MARRIAGE 2 - 1920 WILL, ALEXANDER (Statutory registers Marriages 046/1 1)
6/02/1920 in Tulloch, Bonar, Sutherlandshire, Alexander Will aged 69 and retired Police Constable married widow Ann Mackenzie aged 48, Alexanders parents listed as Alexander Will a deceased farmer and Ann Will, witnessed by Mary Ross and Norman Forbes (Norman is the husband to Alexanders daughter Alexandrina, later moving to Canada about 1925)
DEATH  Alexander James Will- 1923 WILL, ALEXANDER JAMES (Statutory registers Deaths 046/1 11)
21/06/1923 @ 06:15 in Tulloch, Bonar, Sutherland, due to Chronic Superlative Cystitis, 1 year prostatitis.
Parents listed as Alexander Will farmer (Deceased) and Ann Will (McInnes), the Mc prefix believed to be a mistake.
Previous marriages recorded 1.Barbara McRobbie and 2. Ann Mackenzie (Ann a widow previously married name was Yellowlees).
 DEATH  Barbara McRobbie Will - 1901 WILL, BARBARA (Statutory registers Deaths 045/8)
20/05/1901 @ 13:15 @ Police Station, Gower Street, Brora aged 50 years from Heart disease, Sudden, Different names from marriage listed, Father George McRobbie a crofter (not recorded as deceased) and Ann Hutcheon.
MOTHER Ann Innes information – 23/10/1806 INNES, ANN (Old Parish Registers Births 248/ 30 49 Tyrie) Page 49 of 143
Born/Baptized 23/10/1806 Ann natural daughter of Robert Innes and Isobel Duncan in New Pitsligo was Baptized before Thomas Urquhart.
1879 INNES, ANN (Statutory registers Deaths 227/B 44)
Death 29/11/1879 @ 11:00hrs in Poor Lodgings House, New Pitsligo aged 74, Parents both deceased, Robert Innes a Crofter and Isabella Duncan, death attributed to Chronic Bronchitis and general disability for 14 months. Registered by Alexander Will of School Street, New Aberdour.
CENSUS
1851 WILL, ALEXANDER (Census 248/ 5/ 26) Page 26 of 29 - Listed as 146 High Street New Pitsligo aged 1 year old with Ann Innes Born Tyrie, aged 44, Fish Monger.
1861 WILL, ALEXANDER (Census 227/B 2/ 13) Page 13 of 23- New Pitsligo aged 10 with mother Ann Innes a Beesom maker, aged 55 and also resident is Margaret Bane aged 6 (Grandaughter).
1871 – Possibly 19 years old in Aberdour as a farm servant Ref 169/ 2/ 3
1881 – Age 29 Police Constable in Criech Police Station, Sutherlandshire, birthplace New Pitsligo, Aberdeenshire with Barbara also aged 29 birthplace Aberdour.
Children – Mary Ann (age 13, born New Deer), Barbara (age 3, born Aberdour) and Charles James (age 5 months, born Fraserburgh).
1891 – Aged 41 Police Constable in Gower Street, Clyne, Sutherlandshire lists his birthplace as Tyrie, Aberdeenshire, with wife Barbara McRobbie Will also Age 41 and lists her birthplace as Banffshire, King Edward.
Children - Barbara (age, 13 Born Fraserbugh), Charles James (age 10, born Fraserburgh), George (age 8, born Kildonan), Alexandrina (age 7, born Kildonan), Alexander (age 3, born Clyne), Christopher Reid (age 2, born Clyne).
1901 – Aged 50 Police Constable in Gower Street, Clyne, Sutherlandshire lists his birthplace as Tyrie, Aberdeenshire, with wife Barbara McRobbie Will Age 50 and lists her birthplace as Banffshire, King Edward.
Children - Barbara (age 23, born Aberdour), George (age 18, A Stone Mason, born Kildonan), Alexander James (age 13, born Clyne), Christopher Reid (age 12, born Clyne), Alfred William (age 8 born Clyne ), William Anderson (age 6 born Clyne).
1911 – Aged 60 Police Constable in Bonar, Sutherlandshire with 2 sons and a daughter

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Re: Alexander Will Abt 1850 - hit a brick wall trying to find my GGGrandfather
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 24 February 18 09:51 GMT (UK) »
You are right to dismiss the couple in Speymouth, which is quite a long way from New Pitsligo. The 1851 and 1861 censuses (transcriptions at https://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl) state quite clearly that your Alexander is Ann's son. Also, this family is listed in the 1851 census in Speymouth (as Wills), including Alexander, aged under 1 year (as he was born on 28 October 1850, he was just 5 months old).

It is never safe to assume that because you can find only one person who seems to match your candidate it has to be the right one. Many births and baptisms before the start of civil registration in 1855 are simply missing from the records, either because no record was ever made, or because the record has not survived.

MARRIAGE 1 - 1871 WILL, ALEXANDER (Statutory registers Marriages 169/ 13)
parents Alexander Will a Farm Labourer and Ann Innes, all work.
Exactly how is Ann's surname listed? Does it say 'Ann Innes' or does it say 'Ann Will M S Innes'?

Quote
MARRIAGE 2 - 1920 WILL, ALEXANDER (Statutory registers Marriages 046/1 1)
6/02/1920 Alexanders parents listed as Alexander Will a deceased farmer and Ann Will
Exactly how is Ann's surname listed? Does it say 'Ann Will' or does it say 'Ann Will M S Innes'?

Quote
DEATH  Alexander James Will 21/06/1923.
Parents listed as Alexander Will farmer (Deceased) and Ann Will (McInnes), the Mc prefix believed to be a mistake.
Exactly how is Ann's surname listed? 

This detail is very important, because it can tell you if he was born illegitimate, which is what the 1851 and 1861 census suggest.

If this is so, there could be some record in the minutes of the Tyrie Kirk Session (the village of New Pitsligo is in the parish of Tyrie). One of the things the Kirk Sessions did was to try to eradicate extra-marital sex, and many of the minutes contain quite a lot of detail about those accused of such activities. The surviving Kirk Session records are in the National Records of Scotland (NRS). They have been digitised, and there are plans to add them to the resources on Scotland's People, but they are not indexed, so there are practical difficulties about how to make them available. At present you either have to go to the NRS or to one of the local archives that have access to them, or get someone to go on your behalf.



Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Alexander Will Abt 1850 - hit a brick wall trying to find my GGGrandfather
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 24 February 18 11:38 GMT (UK) »

Hoping someone can please help me, I am struggling to find any information on my Great Great Grandfather Alexander Will's birth, this obviously preventing me going any further back.

Heres what I have so far -

BIRTH
Alexander Will - Born about 1850

MARRIAGE 1 - 1871

WILL, ALEXANDER (Statutory registers Marriages 169/ 13)
16/12/1871 (roughly 3 years after the birth of Mary Ann?)

Alexander a 21 year old Farm Servant, resident of Tillywharn Farm,
parents Alexander Will a Farm Labourer and Ann Innes, all work.

Barbara also 21 resident of New Aberdour,
parents John McRobbie a farm labourer and Ann Hutchison.
Witness’s – Alexander McRobbie and Thomas McRobbie.

CENSUS

1851
WILL, ALEXANDER (Census 248/ 5/ 26) Page 26 of 29 - Listed as 146 High Street New Pitsligo aged 1 year old with Ann Innes Born Tyrie, aged 44, Fish Monger.

1861
WILL, ALEXANDER (Census 227/B 2/ 13) Page 13 of 23- New Pitsligo aged 10 with mother Ann Innes a Beesom maker, aged 55 and also resident is Margaret Bane aged 6 (Grandaughter).



1851 142 High Street New Pitsligo
INNES       Ann    Head    44   Fish Monger Aberdeenshire - Tyrie           
WILL       Alexander       Son    1      Aberdeenshire - Tyrie       

1861  Poorhouse Low St, New Pitsligo
INNES   Ann       Head    55       Beasom Maker        Aberdeenshire - New Pitsligo       
WILL       Alexander    Son    11       Aberdeenshire - New Pitsligo           
BANE    Margaret    Grndau    6   Aberdeenshire - New Pitsligo         

removed some details as there were not relevant

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Re: Alexander Will Abt 1850 - hit a brick wall trying to find my GGGrandfather
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 24 February 18 12:02 GMT (UK) »
Where did you get his year of birth from was it from the marriage entry to Barbara?
Alasdair's first post gave the date of marriage as 16/12/1871 and Alexander's age as 21. Subtract 21 fromm 1871 and you get 1850.

His second marriage, in 1920, gives his age as 69. As the marriage was in February, he would probably not have had his birthday in 1920, so he would be 70 by the end of the year. Subtract 70 from 1920 and you get 1850.

Quote
These are the only Alexander Will I can see born c1850 on 1851/61 census
Alasdair has told us that the Alexander Will he is interested in is the son of Ann Innes, and that the 1881, 1891 and 1901 censuses are consistent in saying that he was born in New Pitsligo/Parish of Tyrie. So neither of the others in the census is relevant.

1851 142 High Street New Pitsligo
INNES       Ann    Head    44   Fish Monger Aberdeenshire - Tyrie           
WILL       Alexander       Son    1      Aberdeenshire - Tyrie       

1861  Poorhouse Low St, New Pitsligo
INNES   Ann       Head    55       Beasom Maker        Aberdeenshire - New Pitsligo       
WILL       Alexander    Son    11       Aberdeenshire - New Pitsligo           
BANE    Margaret    Grndau    6   Aberdeenshire - New Pitsligo         

As the family is in the poor house in 1861, it might be worth checking for records of the Tyrie parochial board. If these have survived, they may contain information about Alexander's father and Margaret Bane's parents. The surviving Aberdeenshire parochial board records are held by Aberdeen Archives https://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/services/libraries-and-archives/aberdeen-city-and-aberdeenshire-archives.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.


Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Alexander Will Abt 1850 - hit a brick wall trying to find my GGGrandfather
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 24 February 18 16:22 GMT (UK) »
Alasdair's first post gave the date of marriage as 16/12/1871 and Alexander's age as 21. Subtract 21 fromm 1871 and you get 1850.

His second marriage, in 1920, gives his age as 69. As the marriage was in February, he would probably not have had his birthday in 1920, so he would be 70 by the end of the year. Subtract 70 from 1920 and you get 1850.

As the family is in the poor house in 1861, it might be worth checking for records of the Tyrie parochial board.
If these have survived, they may contain information about Alexander's father and Margaret Bane's parents. The surviving Aberdeenshire parochial board records are held by Aberdeen Archives https://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/services/libraries-and-archives/aberdeen-city-and-aberdeenshire-archives.

Thank you Forfarian on re reading the post I can know see that I misread Alasdair's post
Quote

struggling to find any information on my Great Great Grandfather Alexander Will's birth
so have edited my previous post deleting the info.........

There is a public tree (Alasdair's) on Ancestry some nice pictures of
Alexander James Will born  28 OCT 1850 wife Barbara McRobbie  and family
1841 census is not mentioned on the Tree

Is this a possibility for Ann INNES from the 1851 census?

1841c Piece: SCT1841/248 Place: Tyrie -Aberdeenshire
Enumeration District: 1 Civil Parish: Tyrie
Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: New Pitsligo Folio: 4 Page: 4
Address: Balnamoon

INNES   Ann       F       35               Aberdeenshire           
DUNCAN   Mary       F       7               Aberdeenshire           
SCOTT   Frances   M       3               Outside Census County (1841)   

Not that this helps with Alexander's birth for info just in case it's relevant
this appears to be Mary Duncan on 1861/71/81/91/01

1861c Piece: SCT1861/227 Place: New Pitsligo -Aberdeenshire Enumeration District: 1
Civil Parish: Tyrie Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: New Pitsligo Q S
Folio: 0 Page: 3 Schedule: 23
Address: 12 Low St, New Pitsligo
 
DUNCAN    Mary   Head    U   F   26       Agricultural Labourer        Aberdeenshire - Tyrie          
IMSSLIE   Mary       Dau       F   3       Aberdeenshire - Tyrie   

Is this the same person as Mary Imsslie?

Mary Duncan Birth Date:   14 Oct 1857 Birth Tyrie, Aberdeen,Scotland
Mother:   Mary Duncan
   
1871c Piece: SCT1871/227 Place: New Pitsligo -Aberdeenshire Enumeration District: 1
Civil Parish: Tyrie Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: New Pitsligo Qs Folio: 0 Page: 4 Schedule: 26
Address: 12 Low St New Pitsligo
 
DUNCAN    Mary    Head    U   F 37       Char Woman        Aberdeenshire - Tyrie       
EMSLIE   Mary       Dau       F 13                                   Aberdeenshire - Tyrie   

1881c 134 High Street New Pitsligo Civil Parish:   Tyrie
Mary Duncan   47
Mary Emslie   Dau 28
Alexander Emslie   grandson 2
Mary A Esslmont   Granddau Under 1 Month

1891c 130 High Street  New Pitsligo
Civil Parish:   Tyrie County:   Aberdeenshire
Mary Duncan   57 New Pitsligo
Margaret A Esselmont   Granddau 10
George Smith   Grandson 2
Margaret McKenzie   Boarder 8

1901c 29 1/2 Hanover Street Fraserburgh
Mary Duncan   68 Tyrie, Aberdeenshire
Margaret E Emslie   Granddaughter 20

Margaret Ann Emslie Birth Date:   3 Apr 1881  Birth Place: New Pitsligo, Aberdeen, Scotland
Mother: Mary Emslie

   


Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline AlasdairGTW

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Re: Alexander Will Abt 1850 - hit a brick wall trying to find my GGGrandfather
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 25 February 18 03:11 GMT (UK) »
Thank you both very much for all your help.

I had typed out a reply but never hit the post button, when I went back to rootchat I saw you had already looked it up, I had tried to locate Mary and Frances also to see if there were any clues.

Ancestry transcription for that 1841 census states born in "foriegn parts" for Frances Scott (could this Frances Scott be Female?, the spelling in the transcription is Female, if so there is a Frances Scott born Jamaica in the 1861 cencus in New Deer, possibly just complicating things for myself now though).

Name:Frances Scott [Fanny Scott] 
Age:22
Estimated birth year:abt 1839
Relationship:Stepdaughter
Gender:Female
Where born:Jamaica
Registration Number:225
Civil Parish:New Deer
County:Aberdeenshire
Address:Artamford
Occupation:Dom Serv

 Elizabeth Sangster  7
 Jessie Sangster  1
 Frances Scott  22
 Alexander Reid  2
No adults?

I have so far opted to take the line of least resistance and work on the family tree (1855+) sections or other branches which are more obvious and easier to work out but Alexander's birth date has been bugging me for a while now...so trip to Aberdeen or Edinburgh it is!.

I did have a quick search online to work out how to search through the Kirk session minutes and for other advice on locating further information, one page recorded there are only minutes from 1853 onwards for the Kirk in New Pitsligo although there were various other church records available for before 1853, another site stated that the church was rebuilt in 1853, if this was the case the Kirk might not be up and running, is it possible that some locals would have travelled else where or attended another Church?.

I'm sure I read that Alexander was an Elder in the Church in either Rogart or Bonar, is it possible these might hold any other details?.

Thanks again
Alasdair

Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Alexander Will Abt 1850 - hit a brick wall trying to find my GGGrandfather
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 25 February 18 09:53 GMT (UK) »

Ancestry transcription states oriegn parts for Frances (could this Frances Scott be Female, the spelling implies Female, if so there is a Frances Scott born Jamaica in the 1861 cencus in New Deer, possibly just complicating things for myself now though).

Frances Scott [Fanny Scott]  Age:22
Estimated birth year:abt 1839
Relationship:Stepdaughter
Gender:Female
Where born:Jamaica
Registration Number:225
Civil Parish:New Deer
County:Aberdeenshire
Address:Artamford
Occupation:Dom Serv

 Elizabeth Sangster  7
 Jessie Sangster  1
 Frances Scott  22
 Alexander Reid  2

Public tree on ancestry (Dnsfenwick) here's some of the info. - hopefully you can view yourself to see what you make of the information, unfortunately no further info. on her sister Ann Innes

1851c
Alexander Sangster 41 Farmer New Deer
Mary 32 Tyrie
Andrew 2 New Deer
FANNY SCOTT step dau 12 ? Jamaica
Mary DUNCAN 17 Tyrie general servant

Mary INNES 1817–1876 BIRTH 4 APR 1817 • Balnamoin, Tyrie
DEATH 12 FEB 1876 • Artamford, New Deer

Parents Robert INNES & Isabel DUNCAN
Siblings ANN 1806, Mary 1808, Jean 1812, William 1814

Spouse Peter SCOTT 1820 – 1841, married 29 Nov 1836 New Deer
Dau Fanny SCOTT 1839 – 1908

Spouse Alexander SANGSTER 1811 – 1880, married 18 Dec 1845 New Deer
Sons Alexander 1846, Alexander Fothergill 1848, Andrew  Sangster 1849 – 1924
Dau’s Mary 1851, Lizzie 1855, Jessie 1859, Margaret Scott Sangster 1863


There's this entry for 1841 census which appears to the the same person from 1851 census

Clayfords, Strichen Aberdeenshire
Folio: 1 Page: 3

Alexr SANGSTER 30 Ag Lab        
James SCOTT 14    Ag Lab        
Mary INNES 20   Female Servant          
all born in county


Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Re: Alexander Will Abt 1850 - hit a brick wall trying to find my GGGrandfather
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 25 February 18 10:10 GMT (UK) »
Looks like a typical rubbish Ancestry transcription because your extract above doesn't list whose stepdaughter Frances was, and it inserts a name variant (Fanny) that doesn't appear in the original. FreeCEN https://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl has the complete transcription without any assumptions, guesswork or omissions.

In 1861 the head of household is Alexander Sangster, 49 and his wife is Mary, 44. Children are Mary, 9; Elizabeth, 7; Jessie, 1; stepdaughter Frances Scott, 22; grandson Alexander Reid, 2. All born New Deer except Mary (Tyrie) and Frances (Jamaica).

I note with interest the birth of Alexander Scott or Sangster, father Alexander Scott and mother Eliza Sangster, in New Deer on 2 May 1858. This child would have been aged two on census day 1861.

Jessie Sangster, daughter of Alexander Sangster and Mary Innes, was born in New Deer on 2 May 1859. She would have been one year old on the day of the 1861 census.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Alexander Will Abt 1850 - hit a brick wall trying to find my GGGrandfather
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 25 February 18 10:52 GMT (UK) »
Looks like a typical rubbish Ancestry transcription because
your extract above doesn't list whose stepdaughter Frances was, and it inserts a name variant (Fanny) that doesn't appear in the original.

Quote
1851c
Alexander Sangster 41 Farmer New Deer
Mary 32 Tyrie
Andrew 2 New Deer
FANNY SCOTT step dau 12 ? Jamaica
Mary DUNCAN 17 Tyrie general servant

The info. I typed was from the original census from public tree

Nov 2012
Ellon Library Census records
New Deer , Scottish census 1851

Had a look again and have typed the full info. from the census - perhaps if you or alasdair are able to do so you could take a look and double check the info. I've copied

16
parish of New Deer District of ?ford (can't make it out)
48 Alexander Sangster Head M 41 Farmer of 24 Acres Aberdeenshire New Deer
    Mary ditto wife 32 Farmers wife ditto Tyrie
    Andrew son 2 ditto son ditto New Deer
    Fanny Scott stepdau 12 farmers step-dau emp. at home N?I? Jamiaca
    Mary Duncan servant 17 general servant Aberdeenshire Tyrie



Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk