John Fraser Born in Kinloss(?) around 1813. I think I took a wrong turn.

[vivathia]

Sorry this is a long post, most of it is Census listings, I’ve found myself sudden stumped as to whether I’ve been following the right family, that is the parents of my 3X G Grandfather, John Frase. Or whether the John Fraser I found in the 1861/1871census is my John Fraser, who possibly married again?

His age in the census is pretty consistent, so I can put his date of birth being around 1813/1814. I guess, I can’t start with his birth certificate, as I’m not too sure if I have the right parents now.

However, what I do know, is that he married Elizabeth in August 1831 (there were no parents name given on the marriage cert), but they married in Forres, a shotgun wedding as his first child was born 4 weeks later and their residence given as Balnaferry, in Forres. One thing on his Marriage certificate was that a witness to the marriage was a Robert Fraser, Tailor (this I am 99% certain, is the brother of William Fraser, and believing William to be John's father). Robert Fraser was living at 159 High Street in Forres in 1851, so I have several people who I believed to be the same family, living within 5 doors of the other around the same time. I have Christian/Christina (nee Robertson) having died at Tolbooth Street, Forres in 1866, which is just around the corner, Christian is who I'd believed John's mother to be. (I really hope I'm not being too confusing)

From the birth of the 2nd child they were living in Rafford, 1834, so from here aside from the birth of their children, I have the following census listings.

1841 in Rafford (no address, just Rafford in the place the address should be)
Address: Rafford
    FRASER   John   M   30   Ag Lab    Morayshire       
    FRASER   Elisabeth   F   25       Morayshire       
    FRASER   Mary   F   6       Morayshire       
    FRASER   Jessie   F   4       Morayshire       
    FRASER   George   M   2       Morayshire

1851 in Forres
Address: 353 High Street
    FRASER   John   Head   M   M   38   Agricultural Labourer    Morayshire - Kinloss       
    FRASER   Elizabeth   Wife   M   F   36   -    Morayshire - Forres       
    FRASER   Mary   Dau   U   F   16   -    Morayshire - Rafford       
    FRASER   Christina   Dau   U   F   9   Scholar    Morayshire - Rafford       
    FRASER   Alexander   Son   U   M   7   -    Morayshire - Rafford       
    FRASER   Sophia   Dau   U   F   5   -    Morayshire - Forres       
    FRASER   John   Son   U   M   2   -    Morayshire - Forres       
    FRASER   Hellen   Dau   U   F   2m   -    Morayshire - Forres       
    FRASER   Elisabeth   Dau   U   F   2m   -    Morayshire - Forres


John Fraser’s Wife, Betsy Matheson died in 1860, at 149 High Street, Forres. I think overall the family where poor, all laboured, even the children as they seemed to disappear from the following census at around the age of 12, I found a majority of the children in various census’s that followed, the girls eventually lost if they married or died, John’s wife died of Typhus, so it says something of their poor living conditions?

in the 1861 Census, 3 young children of John and Betsy (8 and under) were living with the eldest known daughter of John and Elizabeth, at 124 High Street, Here, things kind of got confusing for me as to what happened to John, I found a John Fraser back in Rafford in 1861/1871. Though in 1861 it had his place of birth as Dyke, whereas the 1871, his place of birth is Kinloss again, as it was in the 1841/1851 Census

1861 in Rafford
Address: Cluny
    MAVER   William   Farmer   U   M   18   Farmer's Son Farm 230 Acres    Rafford       
    FRASER   John   Servnt   W   M   48   Ploughman    Morayshire - Dyke       
    CRUICKSHANK   John   Servnt   U   M   44   Ploughman    Morayshire - Dallas       
    MELLIS   David   Servnt   U   M   40   Ploughman    Morayshire - Rafford       
    MURDOCH   John   Servnt   U   M   17   Cattleman    Morayshire - Dallas       
    MCKENZIE   Ann   Servnt   U   F   30   Housekeeper    Morayshire - Rafford       
    MCDONALD   Margaret   Servnt   U   F   23   General Servant    Morayshire - Rafford    


1871 in Rafford
Address: Tore
    FRASER   John   Head   M   M   58   Farm Servant    Morayshire - Kinloss    2 rooms   
    FRASER   Margaret   Wife   M   F   33   Farm Servant's Wife    Morayshire - Rafford       
    FRASER   Elspeth   Dau   -   F   9   Scholar    Morayshire - Rafford       
    FRASER   William   Son   -   M   6       Morayshire – Rafford

In the 1871 Census, it shows this John as married, when I did a search for a marriage of John Fraser to a Margaret, I came up with a John marrying a Margaret McDonald in July 1861, who as it seems, was at the same residence as John Fraser in the 1861 Census? The ages match up, as does the age of John give or take a year in the 1841 and 1851 Census.

[vivathia]

So I took the plunge and got the marriage certificate, it states at that time he was married at Craigshead and 45 years old, residing at Craigmill which is where I found John's daughter, Helen living at, in the 1871 Census. The family she worked for was Called MAVER, which is the same surname as the Family John worked for in the 1861 Census.

Address: Craigmill
  MAVER   James   Head   M   M   60   Farmer 180 Acres 80 Arable    Morayshire - Elgin   
    MAVER   Janet   Wife   M   F   54   Farmer's Wife    Morayshire - Rafford       
    MAVER   Isabella   Dau   U   F   30   Farmer's Daughter    Morayshire - Rafford       
    MAVER   Christina   Dau   U   F   21   Farmer's Daughter    Morayshire - Dallas       
    MAVER   John   Son   U   M   19   Farmer's Son    Morayshire - Dallas       
    MAVER   George   Son   U   M   17   Farmer's Son    Morayshire - Dallas       
    MAVER   David   Son   -   M   15   Scholar    Morayshire - Dallas       
    MAVER   Jessie   Dau   -   F   13   Scholar    Morayshire - Dallas       
    MAVER   Richard   Son   -   M   11   Scholar    Morayshire - Dallas       
    MAVER   Margaret   Dau   -   F   8   Scholar    Morayshire - Dallas       
    FRASER   Helen   Servnt   U   F   20   Farm Servant    Morayshire - Forres       
    COGHILL   William   Servnt   U   M   22   Farm Servant    Aberdeenshire - Aberdeen       
    RAINNEY   Jane   Servnt   U   F   21   General Servant Domestic    Ross and Cromarty - -

Here is where I ran head on and found myself confused and lost. Back to the Marriage Certificate of John to Margaret, it gives John's parents as Roderick Fraser and Jessie (nee McKenzie?), Margaret’s parents were Alexander McDonald and Elspet (nee grant).

I did find a Roderick Fraser in 1841, it looks like he was on his second marriage, or a serious age mistake
FRASER   Roderick   M   65   Independent    Outside Census County (1841)       
FRASER   Janet   F   35   Wife To Independent    Morayshire

But I did find a marriage between a Roderick and a Jannet McKenzie in 1795, which would fit. But I can't find any Children to a Roderick and Janet/Jannet/Jessie/Jess apart from an Elspet in 1815, having been born in Alves.

However, before this recent finding above I had his parents as William Fraser and Christian (nee Robertson), and now I’m sat here with no idea how I came to the conclusion how I got his Parents as being William and Christian, But I recently found a fellow genealogist who is related to me, John is his 3X G Grandfather too, who also has William and Christian as John’s parents, sadly, though a few emails have been exchanged, it's mostly me giving him information he doesn't have.

I have no idea where John was in 1881, but I do know around 1890, he left Scotland and moved to Lancashire with his daughter Elizabeth (Helens twin), and Elizabeth’s husband, Alexander, my 2X grandparents, but there is no trace of his 2nd wife, if that was indeed my John Fraser who married Margaret, I looked up for a death and the only nee McDonald died in 1916 in Kinloss aged 80. There is a possibility that John Fraser moved to Kinloss with Margaret, as before 1873 John’s daughter was living there as her husband was the station master at Kinloss railway station, my great grandfather being born at the station masters house in 1875. The family all lived there till about 1890 and moved to Lancashire, 10 kids, 2 parents and the father in law

After showing up in the 1891 Census, he died a few months later in November 1891, sadly, having moved out of Scotland; death certificates don’t give the parents’ names. His age at his time of death in 1891 was given as being 76.

Now I have a jigsaw of a family all fitting together snug, with one piece left to finish, but 2 pieces to go in. Am I totally lost here to not have it resolved?

Since I wrote something so long, I mentioned the twin girls, Elizabeth (or Betsy) and Hellen (or Helen) aged 2mnths in 1851, aged 8 in 1861, and not living together in 1871 so different ages, one being 18 and the other 20. For some reason I can't find their baptism, though the children who were born before, I have found records of, and the last child, Ann born in 1853 I also have.

[Wendy2305]

Hi I wouldn't be to concerned about the birth place being Dyke in the census as John probably didn't fill in the census himself Although have you searched for a John Fraser born Dyke in the other census

You say you believe that Johns parents were William and Christina Traditionally the 1st son and 2nd daughter were named after the father's parents but not everyone followed this One way to check was the 2nd son and 1st daughter named after his wife's parents and was the 3rd son and daughter named after the parents

Fraser was a fairly common name so having people living close by with the same surname close by could possibly be not related

Have you found the witness to the first marriage in the census they maybe the same generation as the bride and groom rather than that of their parents

[vivathia]

You've just said something that's hit me like a wet fish, on John's marriage to Elizabeth Matheson in 1831, the witness was a Robert Fraser, the Only Robert Fraser I found at that time who was a tailor, was who I had suspected of being John's Uncle. The other witness being Alexander Morrison, living in Forres, I did find a 50 year old Alexander Morrison in the 1841 Census residing at Mundale, in Forres,

I didn't think to look at the marriage between John and Margaret, One look at John's parents name on there had me wavering, 1 witness was William Maver, which was the head of the farm that John and Margaret was working in 1861, the other witness being an Archibald Gill.

Johns daughter, Christina married an Archibald Gill in 1859 at that time they were in Inveravon, and in 1861 Archibald and Christina were living at 53 High Street in Forres, there were only 2 Archibald Gill's in 1861, the other being in Paisley.

I've noticed in the past, generations of family names being passed down, but from what I've found, John Fraser didn't have a son named Roderick, or he did (who could have died between censuses), and like John's daughter Elizabeth who is my direct line, didn't have a baptism. John did have a daughter named Janet that had changed to Jessie in the 1861 Census. Their first born daughter was Margaret, I presume to be named after Elizabeth's mother.

However, this leads me to a brick wall once more as I can't find any birth of children to a Roderick Fraser and Jessie (McKenzie) in Kinloss, I don't recall any Rodericks in my line. I guess now, I need to find a Roderick. I found one in the 1841 Census in Forres, aged 65, it states he was born outside county census, and a marriage I found between Roderick and Jannet McKenzie was in Urquhart and Logie Wester, in 1795, so maybe a little more hammering will get the puzzle to fit,

[vivathia]

I went and for the certificate for the Roderick and Jannet, but it was basic with no parents or occupation. I guess it's back to the grind.

Thank you to opening my eyes of the Witnesses, and the offered help.

[Wendy2305]

Hi anything prior to 1855 is only what was recorded in the Parish book not everything was recorded and the further back you go the less records have survived

I have plenty of ancestors who only appear in the birth records of their children no marriage or birth for them