Author Topic: A few snippets, 17th C English  (Read 300 times)

Offline lucymags

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A few snippets, 17th C English
« on: Tuesday 27 February 18 04:15 GMT (UK) »
Oh dear, this is a repeat of a post I have just spent ages putting together and the system froze and I lost it all!  :'(

Let me see if I can recall and repeat everything. I'll skip the waffle, but some of these may be related to the Hart family of the will I posted a few days ago. I have been paging through early Ringmer records just to see what I can randomly spot. Clips below.

Firstly, this curiosity. James Hart alias Gardenner(?) m. Ellnor Reed, 8 Oct 1621 Ringmer, botp. Card index: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-D1Z9-34H?i=2389&cat=1112952
PR says: October 8 were married James Hart alias Gardenner & Ellnor Reed, both of this parish.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-D14X-GM?i=366&cat=85294 (lhs near top)
Then:
5 Sep 1622 Burial of old James Gardiner alias Hart, a papist: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-D146-FJ?i=369&cat=85294 (and apparently his wife just above?)
What does this alias business mean? (I am wondering if he's a sibling of the others mentioned in the John Hart will, but not mentioned because he's a papist?  ???)

Then there's this probably not related, but... a baby Ellnor - who is she? 10 Jul 1614: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-D146-LP?i=354&cat=85294  (rhs near bottom)

Is this a John Hart witness, 11 Sep 1615, rhs near top? https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-D14N-1V?i=355&cat=85294

I hope I haven't forgotten anything, but any help with these is appreciated.

 
 

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Offline lucymags

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Re: A few snippets, 17th C English
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 27 February 18 04:24 GMT (UK) »
Adding a better clip of the James Hart/Gardiner burial - found on the following page.

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Offline horselydown86

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Re: A few snippets, 17th C English
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 27 February 18 06:26 GMT (UK) »
From easiest/clearest down:

First, the surname for baby Ellinor is Page.

Secondly, the witness probably is Hart.  It's an slightly unusual H.

Thirdly, you are right about papist.  The wife above is also referred to as a papist wife.

I did check the full PR for old goodwife Gardener's burial.  Her alias name is not at all clear but may begin with a long-s.

Lastly, to the extent that the marriage is readable, it appears to say what you have transcribed.

It was common to use aliases in that time.  There's nothing sinister about it.

A search of Rootschat and the wider internet should find plenty of references and discussion on the subject.

PS:

I always compose posts of any length in Notepad and paste them into Rootschat when they are finished.

However, if Rootschat does freeze (as it often does during the Antipodean day) you should be able to copy your text out of the input box on the frozen screen to save it.

Offline lucymags

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Re: A few snippets, 17th C English
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 27 February 18 07:41 GMT (UK) »
Thanks very much for all of that, horselydown.

I found a very good explanation of the alias business upon googling. I also see that Gardiner was an old Sussex name. I guess there's no telling exactly who James' parents were or whether he's related to the siblings named in the will (and notice that he's referred to as both Hart alias Gardiner and vice versa). Strange that both of them died about a year after marriage!

Can you read the surname of the baby at the baptism for whom John is a witness? I can't seem to make any sense of that one either, or what it says immediately after John's name.

p.s. Good tip about composing first in another place. I had noticed it was taking a long time, so did a <ctrl>c of my whole post, but then went off to get on with my notes and looking at other tabs and copied something else onto my clipboard whilst editing my notes. By the time I returned to RC, it had disappeared and refreshed the screen. I have now downloaded something called Clipdiary which saves everything on one's clipboard (rather than just the last thing one copies)!

Offline lucymags

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Re: A few snippets, 17th C English
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 27 February 18 07:55 GMT (UK) »
Oh, having just got onto the next page of the Ringmer records (the last of the first book, it seems), it may have answered at least one question. I don't have any hope of comprehending all of the text and certainly don't expect anyone else to translate it all, but I will just post the names here quickly because they are of some interest. Might they be the parish council? I'll post what it says above them as well.

Firstly there's old friend Sir Thomas Springett, two John Harts (I assume sr and jr), and a name which looks like Aptott - so that, I assume, is the same as the baptism for which John (Sr?) was witness.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-D148-FB?i=371&cat=85294

I will plough on and see what I can make out of that page, and what else I can find amongst the records...

Offline Bookbox

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Re: A few snippets, 17th C English
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 27 February 18 11:10 GMT (UK) »
Oh, having just got onto the next page of the Ringmer records (the last of the first book, it seems), it may have answered at least one question. I don't have any hope of comprehending all of the text and certainly don't expect anyone else to translate it all, but I will just post the names here quickly because they are of some interest. Might they be the parish council? I'll post what it says above them as well.

Itís a record of 'Beating the Bounds' in the parish of Ringmer on 1 June 1618, with a list of those who took part, followed by a description of the parish boundaries. A superb source for any historian of the area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beating_the_bounds

Offline Bookbox

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Re: A few snippets, 17th C English
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 27 February 18 11:30 GMT (UK) »
Can you read the surname of the baby at the baptism for whom John is a witness? I can't seem to make any sense of that one either, or what it says immediately after John's name.

At first I thought this might be Axtoll, but now I think itís probably ...

Rose Aptott the Daughter of
Thomas Aptott & Jhone his wife
witnesses John Hart Nicholas frye
Rose Aptott Mary Cornforde


Unusual name, but there's a PCC will for a William Aptott of Ringmer, proved in 1626, and Aptott also appears in the Bounds record, referenced above.
The name also appears here ... http://www.ringmer.info/marriage-licences.html

Offline lucymags

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Re: A few snippets, 17th C English
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 27 February 18 11:54 GMT (UK) »
Oh, how interesting! Thanks for that, about Beating the Bounds, Bookbox.

And thanks also for the Aptott and other names. (I had also thought Axtoll or Axtott at first - then after discovering the one that looked more like Aptott, found a few in the Ancestry index.)

I discovered the Ringmer local history site a few days ago and it's been interesting and useful for a couple of things. (I suppose that they already know about the Beating the Bounds record, but I intend to send them a few notes on my ancestors once I get to the end of the exercise, as they invite submissions, so I'll pass it on if I don't see it elsewhere on their website.)

Offline lucymags

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Re: A few snippets, 17th C English
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 01 March 18 02:41 GMT (UK) »
This one is completed, but I'm just popping a bit on the end, some Sussex history which I found interesting, relating somewhat to the earlier discussion about the Gardinner/Gardener people being papists. I expect some of you in the forum already know this, but anyway...

The last paragraph in this section: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity_in_Sussex#Reign_of_Elizabeth_I suggests that Catholics were hounded less in Sussex than in some other parts of the country at the time:
With further legislation in the 1580s, Sussex Catholics caught harbouring priests were guilty of treason. Significantly, no member of the Sussex gentry or nobility was ever charged under these laws, and neither was there ever any uprising, even though there was a significant Catholic community in Sussex. In this, the west of Sussex was out of step with the rest of England, just as attempts to impose a "Godly magistracy" in Rye in the east of the county was out of step with the rest of Protestant England.... etc.
(Citation: Dimmock, Matthew; Quinn, Paul; Hadfield, Andrew (2013). Art, Literature and Religion in Early Modern Sussex.)

Just for anyone who's interested!  :)