Author Topic: Latin Surrender from 1416 - Help with a few words  (Read 782 times)

Offline Bookbox

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Re: Latin Surrender from 1416 - Help with a few words
« Reply #9 on: Sunday 04 March 18 22:44 GMT (UK) »
I agree with most of what you've got, and have tried to fill the gaps.

My translation is somewhat stilted, sorry - but I think the sense is clear.

=====

... et vesturari t(er)ram

scil(ice)t garnimentu(m) novu(m) v(e)l usitatum ita q(uo)d sit statui suo conveniens in festo Nat(ivita)tis d(omi)ni v(e)l in

festo Nat(ivitatis) S(an)c(t)i Joh(ann)is p(ro)x(im)o et sic extunc quoli(be)t alt(er)o anno hui(usmod)i vesturari ad unu(m) d(i)c(t)o(rum) festo(rum) durante

t(erm)i(n)o p(re)d(i)c(t)o Ita semp(er) quod si d(i)c(t)us Will(el)mus obierit vivente p(re)fato Johanne q(uo)d tunc heredes ip(s)ius Will(el)mi ...


... and to be invested with possession of the land, namely as a novel ornament or for habitual use, provided that it is appropriate for his estate, on the Feast of the Nativity of the Lord or on the Feast of the Nativity of St John next, and thus from then onwards, in any other year whatsoever, to be invested with this possession on one of the said feasts during the aforesaid term, provided always that if the said William should die whilst the aforesaid John is still living, then the heirs of that same William ...

=====

vesturari = to be invested with, to be put in possession of (passive infinitive).

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Offline horselydown86

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Re: Latin Surrender from 1416 - Help with a few words
« Reply #10 on: Monday 05 March 18 04:07 GMT (UK) »
Thank you very much, Bookbox; and there's no need whatsoever to apologize for the translation.

The import of the passage is quite exotic to me - I haven't encountered anything like novel ornament or for habitual use, provided that it is appropriate for his estate in the conveyances I've read so far.

I should be able to handle most of remainder, barring a few words and perhaps one or two short phrases.

As always, I greatly appreciate your help and generosity with your time.

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Offline Bookbox

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Re: Latin Surrender from 1416 - Help with a few words
« Reply #11 on: Monday 05 March 18 10:04 GMT (UK) »
The import of the passage is quite exotic to me - I haven't encountered anything like novel ornament or for habitual use, provided that it is appropriate for his estate in the conveyances I've read so far.

Your three lines greatly extended my Latin vocabulary too. The passage beginning garnimentu(m) novu(m) v(e)l usitatum is problematic. Some further thoughts are below.

Garnimentum, which I haven't seen before, can also mean 'livery', which might be better here. I think the sense may be that the property can serve either as an 'added extra' (novum) or as premises for regular occupation (usitatum), as William chooses.

I think statui suo conveniens refers to the timing clause that follows. He can take possession on one of those two feast-days in the coming year, or in any other year that 'suits his circumstances', the reference being to his person rather than to his (landed) estates.

Is that any clearer?

Offline horselydown86

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Re: Latin Surrender from 1416 - Help with a few words
« Reply #12 on: Monday 05 March 18 11:33 GMT (UK) »
Yes it is clearer, thank you.

I shall have to try to find out what William TRIST was doing which gave him the luxury of such choice in when and how he possessed his share in the manor.  As far as I know, the family are conventional minor gentry from the shires, but this sounds like he may have had an alternate profession.

Offline horselydown86

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Re: Latin Surrender from 1416 - Help with a few words
« Reply #13 on: Monday 12 March 18 14:07 GMT (UK) »
If I may impose one final time, I need help to complete these final lines of my land surrender.

The questions are:

Image 10:

The word between ad and (what I think must be) pasch? looks to be a t(er) word rather than a f(estos) word.  What is it?

Also the fo/ word in the interlined text - is it as simple as for(ma)?  Next the vesta? word and the last word of the line.

I believe that some of these words also appear in Images 12 and 13 below.

Image 11:

I believe this is tunc extincta (despite looking more like extintca).  I have included it because it completes the phrase in Image 10.

Image 12:

Basically, the words bewteen Et and d(i)c(t)i.  I believe these are v's (and possibly u's) although they have a different form to most others in the document.

Image 13:

What is the word after aliquem?  Does it refer to the same t(er) as in Image 10?

Image 14:

I think I have this but would like to confirm the endings.

Image 15:

What are the words either side of siqua?

Image 16:

Does the mark before tunc have significance?  Otherwise, just a check of the reading and endings. 

Image 17:

What is the ending on tener?.  Is cu(m) correct?


My transcript and tentative translation are below.

Thank you very much for your help.

*******************************************************************************

...reddent p(re)fato Joh(ann)i ad to(ta)m vitam suam annuatim sex solid(os) Et octo denar(ios) ad [t(er)?] pasch(e) & Mich(ael)is sup(ra)d(i)c(t)os ^in [fo?] [s(upra)d(i)c(t)a?]^ [vesta?] p(re)d(i)c(t)a [p?]

tunc [extincta?] Et si p(re)d(i)c(t)us redd quinque solid(os) Et [unam?] [vestur?] in [for?] p(re)d(i)c(t)a in vita d(i)c(t)i Will(elm)i Aut sex solid(os) Et octo d(ena)r(ios)

post vitam d(i)c(t)i Will(elm)i a retro f(uer)int post aliquem [t(er)m(inu)m?] [sup(ra)d(i)c(tu)m?] p(er) quad(ra)ginta dies q(uo)d tunc bene liceat p(re)d(i)c(t)o Joh(ann)i in

p(re)d(i)c(t)a p(er)p(ar)t(e)s manerij [distringere?] Et [districtiones?] penes se retinere quousque sibi de d(i)c(t)o redd Et [ass?] siqua [su?t] pleno

f(uer)int [satisf(accion)em?] et se p(ro) [dimid?] A(nnu)m a retro f(uer)int [et?] tunc bene liceat p(re)fato Joh(ann)i in p(re)d(i)c(t)am p(er)p(ar)tem man(er)ij p(re)d(i)c(t)i [reintrare?] et

eam [tenere?] [cu(m)?] in pristi(n)o statu suo p(re)sentib(us) no(n) obstantib(us) In cui(us) rei testi(m)o(niu)m presentib(us) indent(ur)is p(ar)tes p(re)d(i)c(t)e Alt(er)

natim sigilla sua Appos(uer)unt Dat apud Maideford p(re)d(i)c(t)am m(er)kurij p(ro)x(ima) post s(a)n(cti) Mich(aeli)s Arch(angel)i A(nn)o regni

Reg(is) henr(icus) quinti post conq(uestu)m quarto hiis testib(us)
etc


...to render to the said John for his entire life yearly payment of six shillings and eightpence at the [?] of Easter and Michaelmas abovesaid..................
then extinguished And if the aforesaid payment of five shillings and................aforesaid in the life of the said William or six shillings and eightpence
after the life of the said William becomes in arrears after any of the [?] abovesaid by forty days that then it is well lawful for the aforesaid John in
the aforesaid share of the manor to distrain and [stringently?] detain in his hands until to himself concerning the said rent and [assurance?]............fully
satisfied and if by half a year becomes in arrears then it is well lawful for the aforesaid John in the aforesaid share of the aforesaid manor to reenter and
the same to hold [simultaneously?] in former estate to himself promptly and without hindrance In testimony whereof the parties to this present indenture have interchangeably
set their seals Given at Maidford aforesaid on the day of the Wednesday next after Saint Michael the Archangel in the fourth year of
the reign of King Henry the fifth after the Conquest These witnesses...
etc


Offline horselydown86

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Re: Latin Surrender from 1416 - Help with a few words
« Reply #14 on: Monday 12 March 18 14:09 GMT (UK) »
Remaining images:

Offline Bookbox

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Re: Latin Surrender from 1416 - Help with a few words
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 13 March 18 00:42 GMT (UK) »
Image 10:
The word between ad and (what I think must be) pasch? looks to be a t(er) word rather than a f(estos) word.  What is it?

t(empora) = times. Its heavily contracted, and the apparent -er hook is actually -or.

... at the times of Easter and St Michael

Also the fo/ word in the interlined text - is it as simple as for(ma)?  Next the vesta? word and the last word of the line.

... ^in for(ma) s(upra)d(i)c(t)a^ vest(ur)a p(re)d(i)c(t)a pe(n)it(us)
tunc extincta


... in the abovesaid form, the aforesaid investiture then having been thoroughly discharged

Image 11:
I believe this is tunc extincta (despite looking more like extintca).

Agreed.

Image 12:
Basically, the words bewteen Et and d(i)c(t)i.  I believe these are v's (and possibly u's) although they have a different form to most others in the document.

Et si p(re)d(i)c(t)us redd(itus) quinque solido(rum) et Uni(us) Vestur(e) in for(ma) p(re)d(i)c(t)a in vita d(i)c(t)i ...

... and if the aforesaid payment of five shillings and of one investiture in the aforesaid form in the life of the said William ...

(I'm very unsure about the sense of this has the 5 shilling payment been referred to earlier?)

Image 13:
What is the word after aliquem?

post aliquem t(er)mi(num) = after another term

Image 14:
I think I have this but would like to confirm the endings.

... distring(er)e Et distric(i)o(n)em penes se retiner(e)

... to distrain, and to hold back for himself a distraint in his own hands

Image 15:
What are the words either side of siqua?

... redd(itu) et arr(eragia) si qua sint

... payment, and arrears if any there should be,

Image 16:
Does the mark before tunc have significance?  Otherwise, just a check of the reading and endings.

I think it's just punctuation.

fu(er)it satisf(a)c(tu)m. Et si p(er) dimid(ium) a(nnu)m aretro fu(er)it tunc b(e)n(e) liceat ...

... will have been satisfied. And if there will have been arrears for half a year, then it is well lawful ...
 
Image 17:
What is the ending on tener?.  Is cu(m) correct?

tener(e) = to hold

I think it must be cu(m), although one might expect ut = as, or like ?

... presentibus non obstantibus = the present (indentures) notwithstanding

My transcript and tentative translation are below.

Without images for the beginning and end of every phrase, I cant be sure about some of your word-endings and (consequently) about the exact syntax of the translation. But I'm sure you have the essence of it. If parts of the translation are still puzzling after you've added the above suggestions, I can take another look.

Offline horselydown86

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Re: Latin Surrender from 1416 - Help with a few words
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 13 March 18 05:01 GMT (UK) »
Thank you very much, Bookbox, for these excellent transcriptions and translations.

I will incorporate them in my texts and then recheck my translation.

The five shilling payment was referred to earlier - it was the base annual rent due from William to John during the lifetime of John.  See my first post.

I greatly appreciate the close attention and time which you have expended on my questions.

Thanks again.

Offline horselydown86

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Re: Latin Surrender from 1416 - Help with a few words
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 17 March 18 07:22 GMT (UK) »
Bookbox, in working through this document I have formed a partial theory which may shed light on some of the puzzles posed by the translation.

The theory begins with the last word of the top line of the second image attached to my reply #8.

With the benefit of seeing the alternate form of v/u used lower down (eg Reply #13, third attachment), I think this is:

...et vesturam Un(a)m...   (I don't think it begins t(er)-.)

Leaving aside the difference in case, this* has the same structure as this phrase in your Reply #17:

...quinque solido(rum) et Uni(us) Vestur(e)...

Poking around the word vesturam with the search engine, I found that there is a use in archaic law found (for example) in the right of vesturam terrae.

Essentially it means the crop of grass upon the land, from the notion of the vesture (clothing) of the land.

In practice, it seems to refer to the right of feeding or pasturing beasts upon the land.

So (the theory goes), what is demanded here is a right to one feeding on the land.

If you agree, does this alter the interpretation of (for example) the clause beginning scil(ice)t garnimentu(m)... in your Reply #9?

I would be most interested to hear your thoughts.

Thank you for your help.

*******************************************************************************

*  The whole clause being:

Redd(ens) inde annuatim p(re)fat(i)s Joh(an)i ad to(ta)m vitam suam

quinque solid(us) bone monete ad festa pasch(e) et Mich(ael)is Arch(angel)i p(er) equales porcion(es) et tam d(omi)no Regi

qu(a)m Alijs cap(italibus) d(omi)nis et Alijs quib(us)cumq(ue) s(er)vicia inde debita et de iur(e) consueta
et vesturam Un(a)m...