Author Topic: Probate of (Irish) American filed in England  (Read 455 times)

Offline kfagan

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Probate of (Irish) American filed in England
« on: Saturday 03 March 18 19:17 GMT (UK) »
Hi All,

I hope this question is in-bounds for discussion here.

My 2xGGF John Henry Fagan was born in New York City in 1859 and died in the suburbs north of the city in 1932.  His parents were both born in Ireland, but he never lived anywhere outside of New York State.

Once I found his date of death I located his will which was filed where he was living (in New York) at the time of death.  Puzzlingly, I also found a probate record in Ancestry's England & Wales, National Probate Calendar indexed in 1933.  I have tried to research reasons why his will would show up in England, but have not come up with any satisfactory answers.

The Irish origin of the family beyond him is still my major brick wall and I'm wondering if there may be a clue here somewhere.

Does anyone know what reasons there would be to file a probate record in England for someone who lived their entire life in the USA?


Many thanks,
Kevin Fagan

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Offline iluleah

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Re: Probate of (Irish) American filed in England
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 03 March 18 19:30 GMT (UK) »
Purchase a copy of the Will which is likely to tell you.... more than likely there are/were England/Wales assets

Given the varying State Probate rules and laws, the USA is not recognised under the Colonial Probate Act in the UK, this means that the Grant or the equivalent legal document issued in the US such as the Letters of Testamentary, cannot be resealed in the UK
To release the UK assets an entirely new application needs to be made in the UK, for Probate
Typically, the UK Courts will require a Court sealed and certified copy of the probate papers issued in the US by the State Probate Court. When the application is made in the UK, the grant is typically issued to persons appointed to administer the estate by the US Courts.
Leicestershire:Chamberlain, Dakin, Wilkinson, Moss, Cook, Welland, Dobson, Roper,Palfreman, Squires, Hames, Goddard, Topliss, Twells,Bacon.
Northamps:Sykes, Harris, Rice,Knowles.
Rutland:Clements, Dalby, Osbourne, Durance, Smith,Christian, Royce, Richardson,Oakham, Dewey,Newbold,Cox,Chamberlaine,Brow, Cooper, Bloodworth,Clarke
Durham/Yorks:Woodend, Watson,Parker, Dowser
Suffolk/Norfolk:Groom, Coleman, Kemp, Barnard, Alden,Blomfield,Smith,Howes,Knight,Kett,Fryston
Lincolnshire:Clements, Woodend

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Offline KGarrad

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Re: Probate of (Irish) American filed in England
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 03 March 18 20:03 GMT (UK) »
The situation iluleah describes also applies when someone in Scotland has assets in England ::)
And also, as I found recently, when someone in the Isle of Man has assets in England!

For probate to occur in the English courts, John must have had assets based in England?
Maybe shares? Or property?
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline iluleah

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Re: Probate of (Irish) American filed in England
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 03 March 18 20:08 GMT (UK) »
The situation iluleah describes also applies when someone in Scotland has assets in England ::)
And also, as I found recently, when someone in the Isle of Man has assets in England!

For probate to occur in the English courts, John must have had assets based in England?
Maybe shares? Or property?

That is true, I have a Scottish death, who also registered probate in London
Leicestershire:Chamberlain, Dakin, Wilkinson, Moss, Cook, Welland, Dobson, Roper,Palfreman, Squires, Hames, Goddard, Topliss, Twells,Bacon.
Northamps:Sykes, Harris, Rice,Knowles.
Rutland:Clements, Dalby, Osbourne, Durance, Smith,Christian, Royce, Richardson,Oakham, Dewey,Newbold,Cox,Chamberlaine,Brow, Cooper, Bloodworth,Clarke
Durham/Yorks:Woodend, Watson,Parker, Dowser
Suffolk/Norfolk:Groom, Coleman, Kemp, Barnard, Alden,Blomfield,Smith,Howes,Knight,Kett,Fryston
Lincolnshire:Clements, Woodend

Offline Elwyn Soutter

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Re: Probate of (Irish) American filed in England
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 03 March 18 20:40 GMT (UK) »
It was the same in Ireland too.  In Belfast, for example, the public record office has innumerable probate files for people who lived and died outside Ireland but who had assets here. So a separate probate process was followed for those assets, with the probate file having been opened elsewhere, and “re-sealed” in Belfast, after the relevant paperwork had been completed.

Undoubtedly your ancestor had some assets in England which required an English probate authority before they could be dealt with.
Elwyn

Offline kfagan

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Re: Probate of (Irish) American filed in England
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 03 March 18 22:05 GMT (UK) »
Thanks, all! 

I have a copy of the will (attached) from England which is the same as filed in New York with a one-page addendum which seems to my layperson knowledge (and my ability to decipher the handwriting) to grant probate to the attorney of my 2xGGM.

The will is relatively simple and he leaves everything to his wife.

There is a gross value of £473-2-6 assigned to the estate, but no description of the assets is included.  Is there any other documentation that would be available which would have more information?

Offline iluleah

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Re: Probate of (Irish) American filed in England
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 03 March 18 22:30 GMT (UK) »
That is not a Will that is Administration (Admon) and means "a will doesn’t exist and won’t be provided " so check and see if a will exists/was probated in the US, or maybe it is more likely he died intestate, his estate were administrated and his assets given to his wife.

Just rechecked your link, first time it opened one page ( which is part of the admin only) second time I opened it it shows the Will......... ( hopefully if you can find the full admin records it will give you more information about what resource/money was in England/Wales

I checked the (UK) Will index and it stated some Trustee in the US, so likely they administered it , that is who I would looked into and see if they were the legal administrator for the probate court where he died and also if those admin papers are available to research as they may give you details.
Probate records for many states can be found at the local county courthouse. The particular office of jurisdiction might be that of the Probate Court, the Equity Court, the Register of Wills, the County Clerk, the Circuit Court, or others.
Leicestershire:Chamberlain, Dakin, Wilkinson, Moss, Cook, Welland, Dobson, Roper,Palfreman, Squires, Hames, Goddard, Topliss, Twells,Bacon.
Northamps:Sykes, Harris, Rice,Knowles.
Rutland:Clements, Dalby, Osbourne, Durance, Smith,Christian, Royce, Richardson,Oakham, Dewey,Newbold,Cox,Chamberlaine,Brow, Cooper, Bloodworth,Clarke
Durham/Yorks:Woodend, Watson,Parker, Dowser
Suffolk/Norfolk:Groom, Coleman, Kemp, Barnard, Alden,Blomfield,Smith,Howes,Knight,Kett,Fryston
Lincolnshire:Clements, Woodend

Offline iluleah

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Re: Probate of (Irish) American filed in England
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 03 March 18 22:40 GMT (UK) »
Guaranty Executor and Trustee Company Ltd attorney of Mary Louise Fagan( widow) It also states administration ( with Will) and ( limited) so there is a Will 'somewhere' and that somewhere is likely to be in the USA
Leicestershire:Chamberlain, Dakin, Wilkinson, Moss, Cook, Welland, Dobson, Roper,Palfreman, Squires, Hames, Goddard, Topliss, Twells,Bacon.
Northamps:Sykes, Harris, Rice,Knowles.
Rutland:Clements, Dalby, Osbourne, Durance, Smith,Christian, Royce, Richardson,Oakham, Dewey,Newbold,Cox,Chamberlaine,Brow, Cooper, Bloodworth,Clarke
Durham/Yorks:Woodend, Watson,Parker, Dowser
Suffolk/Norfolk:Groom, Coleman, Kemp, Barnard, Alden,Blomfield,Smith,Howes,Knight,Kett,Fryston
Lincolnshire:Clements, Woodend

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Probate of (Irish) American filed in England
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 03 March 18 22:43 GMT (UK) »
The Will (typed copy) appears via link in reply #5
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