Author Topic: TWO BAPTISMS FOR THE SAME PERSON 1805 & 1809 - Manley  (Read 1325 times)

Offline mhearn

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TWO BAPTISMS FOR THE SAME PERSON 1805 & 1809 - Manley
« on: Tuesday 06 March 18 10:31 GMT (UK) »
Hi,

Can anyone shed any light on these circumstances at all?

Edward Manley born 6th November 1805 in Southwark.

He was baptised on 26th December 1805 at St James, Piccadilly, Westminster, Middlesex.  It says BBS to Hannah Manley and Thomas Wheeler (transcribed Smalley but it is Wheeler) so this says he's illegitimate. 

Then four years later he is baptised again on 17th September 1809 at St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey, Southwark to Hannah Manley and Edward Manley DOB 6th November 1805.

Can I be sure it is the same person? I think it is. His marriage certificate states Edward Manley as his father.  I can't find anything concrete on Hannah Manley at all.  Can anyone tell me if this is common situation or how I can find out further information? Thank you and sorry for the long post.

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Offline groom

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Re: TWO BAPTISMS FOR THE SAME PERSON 1805 & 1809 - Manley
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 06 March 18 10:38 GMT (UK) »
Given that the date of birth is the same, it does look as if it is the same person. Although baptism shouldn't happen twice, it does. I have a great x4 grandfather baptised at a day old in Great Yarmouth and then again aged 8, with all his siblings, in London.

It could be that the baby was baptised in a hurry as he wasn't expected to live. However, in your case maybe the family did it to make him appear legitimate.
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Offline mhearn

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Re: TWO BAPTISMS FOR THE SAME PERSON 1805 & 1809 - Manley
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 06 March 18 11:01 GMT (UK) »
Thank you kindly for your prompt reply.  The only thing that is intriguing is that he was named Edward Manley after Hannah Manley and then his father is stated as Manley 4 years later, unless of course she married a cousin maybe? 

I don't think I'll be able to get further back with this part of the tree.  I have tried for many year!

Thank you again.

Offline Thornwood

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Re: TWO BAPTISMS FOR THE SAME PERSON 1805 & 1809 - Manley
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 06 March 18 14:12 GMT (UK) »
You give his date of birth as November 1806 but the first baptism as December 1805. This would mean that he was baptised before he was born.  If these dates are correct it can't be the same person.

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Re: TWO BAPTISMS FOR THE SAME PERSON 1805 & 1809 - Manley
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 06 March 18 14:29 GMT (UK) »
The birthdate in the opening post must be a simple typo.  The parish registers for the baptisms show as follows:

26 Dec 1805, St James Piccadilly:

Edward, B.B. Son of Hannah Manley & Thomas Wheeler, born Nov 6.

17 Sep 1809, St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey:

Edward (born Nov 6th 1805) son of Edward Manley and Hannah his wife Labourer St Johnís South[wark].
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

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Re: TWO BAPTISMS FOR THE SAME PERSON 1805 & 1809 - Manley
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 06 March 18 14:58 GMT (UK) »
Possibly relevant?

Burial at St John Horselydown, Bermondsey, Southwark

15 Apr 1810 Edward Manley, aged 59.
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline mhearn

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Re: TWO BAPTISMS FOR THE SAME PERSON 1805 & 1809 - Manley
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 06 March 18 16:14 GMT (UK) »
Sorry that was a typo with the birthdates - it's now been amended.

Thank you re the burial - I will look into that line and see if anything comes up.


Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: TWO BAPTISMS FOR THE SAME PERSON 1805 & 1809 - Manley
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 06 March 18 18:28 GMT (UK) »
The Edward Manley named as father at 2nd baptism and on marriage certificate may have been young Edward's grandfather. I've seen a few examples of this among my ancestors. It was to hide the fact Edward was illegitimate. I've searched for made-up fathers more than once. Although as you suggest it's possible that Hannah married a cousin.
Perhaps Hannah originally had hopes of marrying Thomas Wheeler. When that didn't happen she may have decided to attempt to "legitimise" her son another way, having him baptised again with a different surname.

Offline mhearn

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Re: TWO BAPTISMS FOR THE SAME PERSON 1805 & 1809 - Manley
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 06 March 18 19:25 GMT (UK) »
Thank you yes that sounds like the likely theory.  Would you know if maybe she didn't marry a cousin and had him baptised again (to legitimise him) do the churches do this willingly? or is it all cloak and dagger as such.  Not sure how else to word what I mean.