Author Topic: Two marriages for the same person but different father showing on certificate  (Read 2114 times)

Offline Joyner1

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Re: Two marriages for the same person but different father showing on certificate
« Reply #36 on: Thursday 08 March 18 13:29 GMT (UK) »
Can you post the following details from the marriage certificate please for Christopher John Harris

1. Estimated date of birth
2. CJH's occupation
3. Father's name
4. Father's occupation

Thank you
I have attached a small part of the marriage cert giving the details you ask for.  I can tell you that CJH was born in 1888 and the birth is registered Lambeth October quarter 1888 Volume 1d page 415.  I have lots more info on the Harris family.

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Offline Joyner1

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Re: Two marriages for the same person but different father showing on certificate
« Reply #37 on: Thursday 08 March 18 13:33 GMT (UK) »
Here's the 1911.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW5J-QJN

Not really much help!

Maureen

Thanks Maureen, although not much help it still shows Elizabeth in 1911, which is something I haven't found.  Ancestry search facility is not as helpful, I was having to search the records manually as the search wasn't giving me anything!

Groom, you are certainly right, the family don't want to be found.

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Offline davidft

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Re: Two marriages for the same person but different father showing on certificate
« Reply #38 on: Thursday 08 March 18 13:48 GMT (UK) »
I had asked for the details re CJH to see if I could find him and Elizabeth on the 1939 register, no joy.

Still it did confirm that CJH was born 1888 in Lambeth to John and Honour/Hannah (depending which census you use).

EDIT

But then if this is the correct marriage her name should be Hester

Marriages Mar 1883 
HARRIS Hester  London C.  1c 109
HARRIS John London C. 1c 109

Online groom

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Re: Two marriages for the same person but different father showing on certificate
« Reply #39 on: Thursday 08 March 18 14:04 GMT (UK) »
I had asked for the details re CJH to see if I could find him and Elizabeth on the 1939 register, no joy.

Still it did confirm that CJH was born 1888 in Lambeth to John and Honour/Hannah (depending which census you use).

EDIT

But then if this is the correct marriage her name should be Hester

Marriages Mar 1883 
HARRIS Hester  London C.  1c 109
HARRIS John London C. 1c 109

Christopher died in 1917, as Elizabeth remarried, so he wouldn't be in the 1939!  ;)
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Offline davidft

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Re: Two marriages for the same person but different father showing on certificate
« Reply #40 on: Thursday 08 March 18 14:09 GMT (UK) »

Christopher died in 1917, as Elizabeth remarried, so he wouldn't be in the 1939!  ;)

Oh well my intention was good   ;)  ;D

Offline Joyner1

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Re: Two marriages for the same person but different father showing on certificate
« Reply #41 on: Thursday 08 March 18 14:38 GMT (UK) »
All your intentions are good and welcome.  I have been on this journey for ten years so I suppose I wasn't all of a sudden going to have a miracle  ;D

Offline Galium

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Re: Two marriages for the same person but different father showing on certificate
« Reply #42 on: Friday 09 March 18 16:52 GMT (UK) »
This is a bit tentative, but I'm posting it on the grounds that even though it has a few holes, it might be the answer, and maybe there is better evidence to support it out there somewhere.

In 1901 Lizzie Johnson has an older brother Edward, aged 17, born in Croydon.

There are no births registered in Croydon of an Edward Johnson during 1883/4.

In the 1891 census there is a 7 year old Edward Johnson, born in Croydon, recorded as the grandson of Thomas and Frances Couchman in Mereworth, Kent.  His parents are not present.

Frances Couchman, née Sears married Stephen Wenham in 1859, having born a child to him earlier in the year named Elizabeth Ann Wenham. Stephen died soon after the marriage, and Frances married Thomas Couchman in 1864.

Elizabeth appears with the family in 1871 in Linton, Kent with the surname Couchman.  She is not with them in 1881, and I haven't been able to find her.

On 15 May 1881 Elizabeth Wenham, spinster aged 22 married Edward Johnson, bachelor aged 23. Father named Alfred. Edward was a plumber.
Elizabeth names her father Thomas Wenham (but perhaps we can excuse her not knowing the name of the father she didn't remember). Witnesses Alfred Johnson (brother or father), and Minnie Johnson (sister).

In December Q 1883 a birth of an Edward Johnson mother's mn Wenham was registered in Bromley district (which neighbours Croydon).

I can't see any further births of Johnson children with mother's mn Wenham.

In 1891 Edward Johnson snr is with his parents Alfred and Martha. He says he is married, but wife and child are not present.
I can't find Elizabeth.

I notice two trees on Ancestry show Elizabeth as having died in Croydon in 1894, but there is no record of this.

While acknowledging that there are gaps in the storyline, and that if true, it creates a whole new lot of questions, I'm suggesting that Louisa Wells may be Elizabeth Johnson née Wenham. 

(Louisa's age is one question. If she is Elizabeth she is three years older than she should be in 1901, but then she is four years older than that in 1911, and those two records are definitely the same woman.)
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Re: Two marriages for the same person but different father showing on certificate
« Reply #43 on: Friday 09 March 18 18:02 GMT (UK) »
Obviously that would need checking, but it looks very plausible to me, Galium. As you say, Edward could easily have been registered in Bromley but have lived in Croydon as, even to someone living there, the borders are unclear. For instance I lived in a postal address of Croydon, but about 500 metres further on it would be Bromley.
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Offline trystan

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Re: Two marriages for the same person but different father showing on certificate
« Reply #44 on: Monday 19 March 18 15:15 GMT (UK) »
Hi Joyner

you may want to go back to your original post and crop the images you have posted before the copyright team remove them.

You will need to rename them as the system may not allow you to use the same name again.

Only small portions of certificates are allowed for deciphering purposes.

Dawn

This crops up on here time and time again and yet there does not seem to be a satisfactory answer as to why the whole certificate cannot be shown. Now I am not saying you are right or wrong, what I am asking for is an explanation that can be defended given that full certificates are regularly posted on other sites. And whilst we are on the subject has anyone asked the GRO for a definitive ruling on this ?  Thank you.


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