Author Topic: Anybody Know "Old German"? You May Help Me Break My Paternal GGF Wall!  (Read 2889 times)

Offline Mike Morrell (NL)

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Re: Anybody Know "Old German"? You May Help Me Break My Paternal GGF Wall!
« Reply #18 on: Friday 23 March 18 13:48 GMT (UK) »
Great work, Viktoria. I only know modern Dutch/Flemish and the handwriting is difficult to read.

As far as I make out, this is a confirmation that first marriage banns have been posted.

I can add a couple of details to yours:
- the date is the 8th of february, 1852, second Sunday of the month.
- we, Eduardus Van Roie Schefs, witness to what will be stated, and civil servant (clerk/registrar) Van den Corgerly(?) Kess of Bornhem, district of Mechelen, Province of Antwerp, ....??
...
... for the most notable  ... old town hall at 11 o' clock in the morning, for the first time declared that ...<the state of?> of marriage will be entered into before us between Jacobus van Cauwenbergh, servant, 30 years old, born in and a resident of Oppuurs, lawful and and adult son of Joanna Dorothea Kerremand (?), both deceased  at Oppuurs ...., and
Melania de Prins, handworker, ..., 27 years old, born in and resident of Bornhem, lawful and adult daughter of ..lus/..lies de Prins, deceased at Bornhem, and of (also Bornhem resident) Maria Antonia Gillis, handworker of old silk.

This announcement has been made known by posting it on the door of the town hall read aloud.
....


The writing is a bit difficult and also Flemish spelling altered after this date.
This is what I can see so far :-
The year 1852 in the month of February ,at the latter end and a Sunday---Eduard van Roie---the parish of Bornhem,the parish of Mechelen(Malines)Antwerp.-----at eleven before midday-------
of marriage, Jacobus van Cauwenbergh, 30 years ,born and living-------of age and the son of
Johannes Nicholas van Cauwenbergh and Johanna Dorothea (Kowers)of Bornhem and----- Maria 
Anastassia Gillis,a hand worker in silk.--
Perhaps there is something to help you. I`ll try again tomorrow. V.
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Offline Mike Morrell (NL)

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Re: Anybody Know "Old German"? You May Help Me Break My Paternal GGF Wall!
« Reply #19 on: Friday 23 March 18 14:04 GMT (UK) »
Haha, great story! I vividly remember making similar errors when I moved to NL 40 years ago. I could ask for simple things in shops/restaurants but any follow-up questions and options left me completely stumped. I ended up just answering "yes" to everying.
Mike

I made errors when I lived there but got by alright ,once asking for sardines without fur and legs when I meant without skin and bones  ;D
Cheerio,viktoria.
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Offline Mike Morrell (NL)

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Re: Anybody Know "Old German"? You May Help Me Break My Paternal GGF Wall!
« Reply #20 on: Friday 23 March 18 16:20 GMT (UK) »
I managed to work out some info from the first xxx pdf:
The year 1852, 18 february at 2 o’clock in the afternoon, before us – Edwardus Van Roie Schepen en delegated civil servant (clerk/registrar) Yve (?) den Courgerly ten Staet of the village/town of Bornhem, district of Mechelen, province of Antwerp, are gathered in our town hall: Jacobus Van Couwenbergh, servant, resident of Oppuurs and born there the 26th June 18 1821, lawful, adult son of Joannes Sievlaer van Couenbergh, deceased at Oppuurs on the 9th of March 18 1825, and Joanna Dorothea Kerremans also deceased at Oppuurs on the the 25th June 1826.
…
Seen here the proof of …
…
And Melania de Prins, handworker, resident of this community (town/village) and born here on the 26th of April 1824, lawful and adult daughter of Paulus De Prins., deceased at Bornhem on 26th May 1832.
….
Seen here from Marie Antonia Gillies...

(to be continued yyyy.2 and zzzz.2)

There are some very specific dates mentioned. I hope they help.

Mike



Viktoria...I found another document (actually 3 attachments) that must tell quite a story...but as usual, I have a language barrier.  Please help! Or maybe others may want to help.
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Offline Viktoria

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Re: Anybody Know "Old German"? You May Help Me Break My Paternal GGF Wall!
« Reply #21 on: Friday 23 March 18 19:21 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Mike,one problem was the documents came up so small and when enlarging them they were   bigger than the screen so I could only see half at a time then reduce,move over and enlarge,get to the  right hand side get an idea of what that said.
 Often the sense of course carried over to the next line.
Thewriting is not easy to read but what wonderful documents to have,and I quite understand why Woodworker 22 would like to know exactly what was written.I certainly would
The "jargonese " is largly adding nothing but the bare bones give dates ,names and places so quite a good bit of info.
I would have found it a tiny bit easier had the documents come in date order,more sense would have appeared but It may have not been obvious as the dates were written,not in numbers.
I will have to leave it for  little while which must be frustrating for Woodworker.
Did you get the sense that Melania was not married when Aloyisius was born,as the wedding was about 4 years later but as Belgian women don`t lose their maiden names that does confuse matters.
I`ll try again when I get back, attending a funeral and having to travel there and stay so a few
days `til I try again.
Thanks again Mike.Viktoria.


Offline Mike Morrell (NL)

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Re: Anybody Know "Old German"? You May Help Me Break My Paternal GGF Wall!
« Reply #22 on: Saturday 24 March 18 12:20 GMT (UK) »
Hi Viktoria,

Yes the documents were long and difficult to read. My eyes glazed over quickly  ;). I had the advantage of Photoshop so that I could zoom in and out quickly and also improve the contrast. I'll attach the images just in case you're interested.

And yes it seems they were married 4 years after Aloyisius was born. The last page page does explicitly state that the child was born to them ('van hun geboren is').

This is what I've made of the three pages:

The year 1852, 18 february at 2 o’clock in the afternoon, before us – Edwardus Van Roie Schepen en delegated civil servant (clerk/registrar) Yve (?) den Courgerly ten Staet of the village/town of Bornhem, district of Mechelen, province of Antwerp, are gathered in our town hall: Jacobus Van Couwenbergh, servant, resident of Oppuurs and born there the 26th June 18 1821, lawful, adult son of Joannes Sievlaer van Couenbergh, deceased at Oppuurs on the 9th of March 18 1825, and Joanna Dorothea Kerremans also deceased at Oppuurs on the the 25th June 1826.
…
Seen here the proof of …
…
And Melania de Prins, handworker, resident of this community (town/village) and born here on the 26th of April 1824, lawful and adult daughter of Paulus De Prins., deceased at Bornhem on 26th May 1832.
….
Seen here from Marie Antonia Gillies, hadwerker, 61 years old and a resident of this municipality here, currently giving permission in the marriage of her daughter on behalf of the parents,
…… (legal)
That the marriage Banns have been posted on the door of the town hall and also announced on the Sundays of 8 and 15 of this month February at 11 o’ clock in the morning. No objections to the marriage have been submitted and given his authority …
… (legal_
That Jacobus van Cauwenbergh and Melania Deprins are united by marriage.
Together with this (event? Registration?) it, is clear that a child of the male sex was born to them ...(legal)… registered in this municipality on 13th May 1848 under number 33 with the Surname and Christian Name De Prins, Aloysius, who they recognise as their lawful son.
…
Names of witnesses:
Carolus Vorleysen , writer (or clerk), 55 years old
Carolus Ludovicus Van Guets, glassmaker, 22 years old
Petrus Roels, shopkeeper (?), 48 years  old
Joanna Van Lukess, Fishseller, 62 years old
All 4 … residents of Bornhem.

…. (legal)



Thanks Mike,one problem was the documents came up so small and when enlarging them they were   bigger than the screen so I could only see half at a time then reduce,move over and enlarge,get to the  right hand side get an idea of what that said.
 Often the sense of course carried over to the next line.
Thewriting is not easy to read but what wonderful documents to have,and I quite understand why Woodworker 22 would like to know exactly what was written.I certainly would
The "jargonese " is largly adding nothing but the bare bones give dates ,names and places so quite a good bit of info.
I would have found it a tiny bit easier had the documents come in date order,more sense would have appeared but It may have not been obvious as the dates were written,not in numbers.
I will have to leave it for  little while which must be frustrating for Woodworker.
Did you get the sense that Melania was not married when Aloyisius was born,as the wedding was about 4 years later but as Belgian women don`t lose their maiden names that does confuse matters.
I`ll try again when I get back, attending a funeral and having to travel there and stay so a few
days `til I try again.
Thanks again Mike.Viktoria.
Photo restorers may re-use and improve on my posted versions. Acknowledgement appreciated.

Offline Mike Morrell (NL)

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Re: Anybody Know "Old German"? You May Help Me Break My Paternal GGF Wall!
« Reply #23 on: Saturday 24 March 18 17:01 GMT (UK) »
Viktoria's right. It's a document confirming the birth of Melania. This is the info:

In the year 1824 on the 20th of April at 3 o’ clock in the afternoon, before us … Joannes Bryd Shepene, an officer of this municipality Bornhem…., District of Mechelen, Province of Antwerp, (witness?) Paulus Deprins, <occupation unreadable> 32 years old, resident of this municipality … has a child of the feminine sex, born today at 5 o’ clock in the morning to Maria Anna Gillis, 30 years old.
….
Declared to want to give the child the Christian name of Melania.

… (legal)

Please help....Here is one more document to help validate Melanie DePrins as my ancestor. I wish I had the skills to translate this myself.
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Offline Woodworker22

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Re: Anybody Know "Old German"? You May Help Me Break My Paternal GGF Wall!
« Reply #24 on: Sunday 25 March 18 03:14 BST (UK) »
Mike, Viktoria and others...Thanks for your hard work on my documents.  Your knowledge greatly improved and added to my family tree. I hope you all will be available to help me in the future as I continue to work on my Belgian ancestry. By the way...you broke the wall for me.