Author Topic: Ellen / Helen Bain  (Read 12956 times)

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Re: Ellen / Helen Bain
« Reply #54 on: Monday 26 March 18 18:21 BST (UK) »
Copy of 1911 Scotland Census (hopefully)
Dorrie
Small, County Antrim & Dundee
Dickson, County Down & Dundee
Madden, County Westmeath
Patrick, Fife
Easson, Fife
Leslie, Fife
Paterson, Fife

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Re: Ellen / Helen Bain
« Reply #55 on: Monday 26 March 18 18:23 BST (UK) »
Sorry that has not worked properly as I am not very good at this.

Dorrie
Small, County Antrim & Dundee
Dickson, County Down & Dundee
Madden, County Westmeath
Patrick, Fife
Easson, Fife
Leslie, Fife
Paterson, Fife

Offline MonicaL

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Re: Ellen / Helen Bain
« Reply #56 on: Monday 26 March 18 20:44 BST (UK) »
Dorrie, that has worked dandy  ;)

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Re: Ellen / Helen Bain
« Reply #57 on: Monday 26 March 18 22:18 BST (UK) »
Thanks Monica. I must brush up on my technological skills  ;D ;D

Dorrie
Small, County Antrim & Dundee
Dickson, County Down & Dundee
Madden, County Westmeath
Patrick, Fife
Easson, Fife
Leslie, Fife
Paterson, Fife


Offline Kirsty Edwards

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Re: Ellen / Helen Bain
« Reply #58 on: Tuesday 27 March 18 02:09 BST (UK) »
The entry below Helen in the 1911 census.
In 1901, there is this entry at 41 Balvenie Street Mortlach:
Peter Bain 54 shoemaker b. Speymouth, Morayshire
Helen Bain 28 daughter, housekeeper b. glenrinnes, Banffshire
Elizabeth Bain 10 grandchild b. Mortlach, Banffshire
Jeanie Bain 7 grandchild b. Mortlach, Banffshire
James Smith 6 Months grandchild b. Mortlach, Banffshire
Monica

By the looks of it Jeanie is also Hellen / Ellens baby  :o :o - see attached certificate. Thoughts? 


Also re William Tennant Bain marriage to Lily Ward - how can I find if they had children & Lilys parents? (I'm not having much luck on Ancestry).  :-\ ???

Thank you all for your help  :)

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Ellen / Helen Bain
« Reply #59 on: Tuesday 27 March 18 12:16 BST (UK) »
Also re William Tennant Bain marriage to Lily Ward - how can I find if they had children & Lilys parents? (I'm not having much luck on Ancestry).  :-\ ???
Forget about Ancestry.

As it seems that they married in England, go to https://www.freebmd.org.uk/search and search for births using surname Bain and mother's surname Ward. I just did and got 7 results. Then I searched for marriage of a male Bain to a female Ward and got 4. I've listed them chronologically, green for marriages, red for births
Battersea 1931
Elham 1931

Elham 1932
Wandsworth 1933
Elham 1932
Dover 1937
Elham 1937
Hull 1941
Horncastle 1942
Woolwich 1948
Woolwich 1949
Woolwich 1953

So looking at the dates and places I reckon that all but two of these births can be ascribed to one of other of the other couples (Battersea is next door to Wandsworth and it's too early to be WTB and LW's child anyway).

The remaining two are the one in Hull in 1941 and the one in Horncastle in 1942. They are far enough apart in time to be siblings, but both places are a long way from Dover. But it was wartime, so it's very possible that Lily was evacuated from Dover to somewhere safer to have her babies. On the other hand, the mother of the Elham babies could be the one who was evacuated. I can't think of any easy way to find out, short of sending off for copies of the birth certificates.

Digression - The William Bain and Lily I Bain in Portsmouth in the 1939 Register are not your William Tennant Bain and Lily Ward. Four reasons. First, that William Bain hasn't given a middle initial, though yours was almost always named with the initial anywhere else. Second, his date of birth is 22 December 1911, and we know from William Tennant Bain's birth certificate that he was born on 25 November 1910. Third, that William Bain is a stoker in the Royal Navy, but we know that your William Tennant Bain served in the Army, in the Royal Scots. Fourth, a William C Bain married a Lily I Restell in Portsmouth in 1935. Lily Irene Bain, born 7 November 1912, died in Portsmouth in 2004. This DoB matches the one in Portsmouth in the 1939 Register. William Charles Bain, DoB 29 [sic] December 1911, died in Portsmouth in 1999. So this couple is a complete red herring.

However I can't find William Tennant Bain, or Lily Bain née Ward, in the 1939 register. If he was a regular soldier before the war, they could have been stationed somewhere not in England ior Wales.

We know from the marriage notice that Lily's parents were Mr and Mrs A P Ward; that they lived in Dover; and that they were deceased by 1937. The marriage notice doesn't give her middle initial but it does give his. So I think we are looking for a plain Lily Ward.

The only birth of a plain Lily Ward in Kent between 1900 and 1921 was in Dover in 1911. According to the GRO web site the maiden surname of the mother of that Lily Ward was Menpes. An Irene May Ward, mother's surname Menpes, was born in Dover in 1909.

The 1911 census lists a family at 72 St James' Street, Dover consisting of Alfred Partridge Ward, wife Kate and four children including Irene, aged 1. Alfred and Kate had been married 10 years. And bingo! there is a marriage of Alred Partridge Ward to Kate Menpes in Dover in 1901. An Alfred P Ward, 39, died in Dover in 1913, and a Kate Ward, 52, died in Dover in 1929.

The only death of a Lily Bain born in 1911 that I have found was of a 93-year-old, born 16th April 1911, died in South-east Hampshire in September 2004.

So I think that Lily was born on 16 April 1911 in Dover, probably at 72 St James' Street, and her parents were Alfred Partridge Ward and Kate Menpes.

Does that help? You would, of course, need to confirm all that by getting all the relevant certificates. I could easily have got it all wrong!



Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

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Re: Ellen / Helen Bain
« Reply #60 on: Tuesday 27 March 18 13:40 BST (UK) »
Hi Kirsty,

To answer your question about the birth you have found for a Jane Wallace Bain in 1893. I would think that she is also Ellen/Helen's natrual daughter.

There is a Jane Bain in the 1911 Scotland Census aged 17 - Mortlach - which you could look at.

From there you could search for a marriage for Jane/Jeannie Bain. One possibility is a marriage in 1924 of a Jane Bain to an Alexander Porter in Cullen which is only around 26 miles from Dufftown. It is the only one in Banffshire for the period 1911 to 1931.

As you know these are all available on Scotlands People (sorry I have no credits at the moment to look for you.)

Dorrie
Small, County Antrim & Dundee
Dickson, County Down & Dundee
Madden, County Westmeath
Patrick, Fife
Easson, Fife
Leslie, Fife
Paterson, Fife

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Ellen / Helen Bain
« Reply #61 on: Tuesday 27 March 18 14:00 BST (UK) »
From there you could search for a marriage for Jane/Jeannie Bain. One possibility is a marriage in 1924 of a Jane Bain to an Alexander Porter in Cullen which is only around 26 miles from Dufftown. It is the only one in Banffshire for the period 1911 to 1931.
LIBINDX has what seems to be two listings for Jane Bain, partner Alexander Porter.

One listing says that she died in Mosstodloch on 1 August 1973 aged 67, and is buried in Essil kirkyard. The other says that she was born in Cullen on 23 May 1906, parents Robert Bain and Jessie Ann Mitchell. Her mother was born in Cullen and married Robert Bain in Cullen in 1902. So I don't think the 1924 marriage is the daughter of Helen/Ellen/Nellie Bain from Mortlach. But the certificate would confirm or otherwise.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

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Re: Ellen / Helen Bain
« Reply #62 on: Tuesday 27 March 18 14:22 BST (UK) »
If we forget the marriage to Alexander Porter which now looks unlikely to be her and concentrate on finding a death for her assuming she remained single the following may be worth looking at -

Jane Wallace Bain died 1964 aged 70 registered in Glasgow (North) Scotlands People ref 645/3 939.
Note the middle name of Wallace.

Dorrie
Small, County Antrim & Dundee
Dickson, County Down & Dundee
Madden, County Westmeath
Patrick, Fife
Easson, Fife
Leslie, Fife
Paterson, Fife