Should I give up due to the common name?

[coombs]

Regarding Andrew Carney. I wonder if I am reading too much into him or could I be onto something. Him and James Smith both had similar occupations, and both not from Oxford or Oxfordshire but living there at the same time. It is certainly something to go on.

I have done a bit of research on FindMyPast (as some censuses you can type occupation as a keyword) of anyone with the surname Smith born c1770-1810 who was a tin plate worker/tin man and some were born in Bilston and Sedgley in Staffordshire, Lancashire, London or Norfolk. Not found any link to the John and Samuel Smith born in Diss Norfolk who were tin plate workers. One of them lived in Northampton in 1851.

[angelfish58]

As Andrew Carney is a potential  lead, I would  research his line back and sideways, he may be related to James Smith's mother rather than the Smiths. It maybe that, if there is a link, it's  simply that the families are from the same Parish, but I have come across  several instances of families marrying within a trade or into a related trade. Good luck, I know you won't give up on this.

[coombs]

As Andrew Carney is a potential  lead, I would  research his line back and sideways, he may be related to James Smith's mother rather than the Smiths. It maybe that, if there is a link, it's  simply that the families are from the same Parish, but I have come across  several instances of families marrying within a trade or into a related trade. Good luck, I know you won't give up on this.

Yes, Andrew Carney was from London (Middlesex) as he said so in the 1841 census. He died in 1845 aged 56. In 1811 he was in London, 1819 in Oxford and 1822 in Edgware. (Children's baptisms).

James Smith may be from London originally himself then, if it turns out that the biggest link is him and Andrew coming from the same parish. But James, Andrew and Andrew's father all worked in the metal business.

My nan always said there was some Irish in the family on this side (she said on her maternal grandfathers side, and he was the grandson of James Smith) and I have not yet come across any proof of this, if Andrew Carney is related to James, and James Smith (maybe his mother) was part of the Carney family, then they may have originated in Ireland as Carney is an Irish name. Plenty of Irish migration to England before the Famine.

[coombs]

Give up? No I don't think that is in your nature 

I do completely understand having almost the same story, same era and similar issues born outside the county, died before the 1851 and with the name of John Smith.

I remember first finding the name and thinking 'help'...'not a chance'... 'what now'.... and I had been lulled into a false sense of security as all previous research up to then was not only in the same county but in the same village plus a few in the next village for centuries.

So I ignored him for years until I couldn't ignore him any more and like yourself I wrote down all/any records I did have/could find, what potential records could be available at that time, where they were and spent time researching them.

I found a few John Smiths and researched each one forward to see who they were, what the did, where they lived , discounting one after the other until I found the right one and this was all pre internet so took many hours which now can be done in minutes.

Small update as this is the approach I am doing now. Seeing how many James Smith's in ever widening circles outside Oxfordshire could throw up a lead. On Anc I have checked all Smith marriages 1811-1840 in Oxford City to see if James Smith was a witness to one of them and to no avail. James lived in Oxford city from at least 1819 to his 1849 death.

Not yet found Andrew Carney's baptism, this possible relative of James Smith but as said he did say his dad was James Carney a cutler. Andrew was born c1788/1789. I may have found possible relatives of Andrew. A James Carney wed Mary Winchester in 1771 in Marylebone, one wed Eleanor Toole in 1769 in either St Martin In The Fields or Soho and one wed Mary Mattison in 1777.

Andrew married in St Anne Soho in 1809 as did his son by Sarah in 1832.

Other possible rellies of Andrew could he the following:- From the late 1760s onwards, an Andrew Carney and Barbara were having children in Soho/ St Martin In The Fields. (Gilbert 1763, Matthew Hawkins Carney 1771, Barbara who died as a baby, Ann Carney in 1769 - no James yet found). Could have been a grandfather or uncle of Andrew born c1788. Andrew's heritage probably is Scottish or Irish further back.

I even have checked Oxon wills on FindMyPast for any Smith's 1810-1850 to see if James was mentioned and nothing. This is how tenacious I am. If James was a rellie of Andrew then he probably was from London, or if a lifelong friend then probably still a Londoner, and they both moved up to Oxford for a while, James stayed there and Andrew returned to London.

[pinefamily]

As maddening as this type of search can be, sometimes it is the only option to progress in our research, isn't it? I am doing a similar search at the moment, with selective searches in will collections on Ancestry trying to find mention of an ancestor. No baptism is evident, leaving me with a similar search to you.

[coombs]

As maddening as this type of search can be, sometimes it is the only option to progress in our research, isn't it? I am doing a similar search at the moment, with selective searches in will collections on Ancestry trying to find mention of an ancestor. No baptism is evident, leaving me with a similar search to you.

Yes the blanket searches. Also taking into account my grans story of a bit of Irish in the blood on that side of the family. Family stories are not always reliable as we know but in some instances where there is smoke there is fire. I have kept a list of the Smith's in the 1851-1881 census (via the FindMyPast occupation keyword search) who were tin plate workers/braziers who were James' generation.

I have also done blanket searches of marriages in Oxford c1811-1822 and Andrew Carney did not witness any other marriage in Oxford. He was back in Middlesex by 1822. Yes, it is certainly worth a shot, doing blanket searches with whatever info I have, and even with a Smith I shall not let this go.

[jomcd967]

Hi Coombs,

The Genealogist is also excellent for searching census records by occupation, a quick look show at least 20 Smiths as tin plate workers on the 1841.

Also a will for a John Smith, Brazier of Huntingdonshire, he names his brothers James and Robert as his executors, will dated 1839.

I would be happy to forward you the above 1841 census results if you wish?

Jo 

[coombs]

Hi Coombs,

The Genealogist is also excellent for searching census records by occupation, a quick look show at least 20 Smiths as tin plate workers on the 1841.

Also a will for a John Smith, Brazier of Huntingdonshire, he names his brothers James and Robert as his executors, will dated 1839.

I would be happy to forward you the above 1841 census results if you wish?

Jo 

Hi Jo. Yes please. Thanks. I'll send you a PM.

[jomcd967]

John Smith, Brazier of St Neots, Huntingdon. Date of Probate: 29 Jan 1839.

....bequeath to Martha Hart of St Neots, with whose mother I now lodge, a legacy of $50 to be paid within six months after my death and payment thereof and of my just debts, funeral and testamentary expenses. I give and bequeath the ? residue of my property of whatever fund the same may consist at my decease unto my two brothers James and Robert, share and share alike and I appoint Mr John Carrington of St Neots executor of this my will....

Proved at London on 25 Feb 1839 by John Carrington, executor.

May be worth looking into....

Jo