Research in Archives in Paris

[joger]

Here is the summary of the wedding contract between JB De Ridder et De Groote
I had to register in a forum specialized in the Nord Pas de Calais  because the first forum I tried did not bring any help

"Gros de St Omer, contrat de mariage 175 du 03/01/1778 (4E5/1445)
Le Sr Jean Barthelemie DERIDDER bailly du village de Renescure y demeurant, veuf de Marie Catherine Thérèse HEEMS d’une part.
Damoiselle Marie Anne DEGROOTE fille majeure coutumière demeurant présentement au château d’Halines, native de Cassel, de feu François et d’encore vivante Catherine ALEXANDRE, assistée de damoiselle Marie Thérèse DEGROOTE sa sœur germaine, de Pierre Joseph QUIQUE laboureur demeurant au fort rouge, paroisse d’Arques et de Marie Angélique TOULOTTE sa femme comme parent par alliance d’autre part.
Les futurs mariants ont déclaré ne faire aucun apport de mariage, se tenant réciproquement contents de chacun leurs droit et action"

Separation as to property in fact.

Translation:

Mister (le sr= le sieur= mister)JB widower of MCT Heems , living in Renescure , bailli de Renescure  and MA Degroote over the age of majority (coutumière ? I don't know what that meant IN THOSE DAYS, I have asked , I'll let you know, I think it might mean that she was adopted), born in Cassel,for the moment living in the castle of Halines, daughter of the late François and of  still living Catherine ALEXANDRE, advised and assisted by her sister MT Degroote, Pierre Quique, farmer living at fort rouge , parish of Arques and MA Toulotte his wife, as family in law.
The future grom and bride declared to make no contribution to the marriage, being satisfied with their rights and actions.

[joger]

Not sure what Jean B did before he was a surgeon.    I do not understand French unfortunately was wondering if you could tell me
"Cornil de ridder maitre 1664 etat de biens ff 1116 de Coudekerque folios 254 et 272 archives de Bergues
etat biens ff 1623 23 april 1717 louis deridder 21.2.1690"
My cousin wonders if maitre could mean Lord?!

Heather

He must have been a student , studying surgery ( he was 27 in 1769).

Maître means:
Maître ou Maîstre :
Qui détient la maîtrise d’un art, ce terme signifiait que l'homme était notaire, avocat, ou artisan, etc..., ceux qui pouvaient utiliser ce titre étaient ceux qui avait reçu une reconnaissance de leur corporation à laquelle ils appartenaient. On pouvait être ainsi: maître chirurgien, maître charpentier, maître cordonnier, maître maçon, maître meunier, etc.. Mais en général, le métier exercé était précisé dans le titre.
http://www.geneafrance.org/rubrique.php?page=denomin

Maître does not mean at all that he was a noble or a lord but that he was a master in his profession (could be a miller , a carpenter etc...)

Check your MP, sent sent you a personal message.

[joger]

fille majeure coutumière = under 25 (age of the legal majority) , over the age of the "majorité coutumière", which varied according th the region (I don't know what was the age in the north), she could not marry without the consent of her living parents but could manage her property.

Nothing to do with adoption (as I thought).
.

[joger]

Birth of Marie Josephe Pétronille De Groote daughter of François born in this parish and Catharine Alexander born in the parish of  B...?in  the diocese of Boulogne

http://archivesdepartementales.lenord.fr/?id=viewer&doc=accounts%2Fmnesys_ad59%2Fdatas%2Fir%2FEtat%20civil%2FFRAD059_MI_A_Z_2011_07_01%2Exml&page_ref=69565&lot_num=1&img_num=1&index_in_visu=
page 958/1120

[joger]

The 2d wife of Jean Barthélémy was baptized Marie Josephe Pétronille, she married withe these forenames , she gave birth to Louis Edouard withe these forenames but she is Marie Anne De Groote in the wedding contract .

[joger]

According to the family "legend"  one of JB's sisters was a chambermaid in Versailles (which became = a chambermaid of the Queen in the castle of Versailles).
In fact MF De Ridder married Jean Louis Richer, a tailor, in Versailles 13d august  1770 and she was "servant at mister Pommier's"

I searched infos on Marie Antoinette's chambermaids ans servants and I found :
http://versaillesblog.blogspot.fr/2008/10/les-toilettes-de-marie-antoinette.html
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henriette_Campan
https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/M%C3%A9moires_sur_la_vie_priv%C3%A9e_de_Marie-Antoinette/Tome_1/14

But you'll have to read french .
Madame Campan, the first chambermaid of the Queen wrote a book(last link above) where she explains with many details how was organized the work of the chambermaids.

If somebody wants to search JB 's sister amongst the domesticity of the Queen, search for a Madame RICHER, not DE RIDDER, since she was married . Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette married in may 1770 (same year).

[Hukanui76]

Thank you, the French may be a bit beyond me but may find someone who can help.

Yet another query were priests allowed to marry in the 17th century?

Regards
Heather

[joger]

I presume you mean catholic priests?
The answer is no .
May I ask why you asked?

[Hukanui76]

sorry I should have said why I asked of course.   One of the De Ridders, Charles b. abt 1653 is shown as being a "cure" but in 1696 he married Jeanne Menaert.  He is shown on marriage record of Louis De Ridder and Anne Obay as ? of Spycker.

Regards
Heather